The Wall

Political discussion here. Any reasonable opinion is welcome, but due to the sensitive nature of the topic area, please be nice and respectful to others. No flaming or trolling, please. And please keep political commentary out of the other board areas and confine it to this area. Thanks!
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Cap
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Re: The Wall

Post by Cap » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:01 am

I’m concerned that Trump is the kind of guy who, when escalation fails, escalates further.

When holding the federal budget hostage doesn’t work, Trump (and his minions in the Senate) will hold the debt ceiling hostage.
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Superbone
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Re: The Wall

Post by Superbone » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:05 pm

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:18 am
graft
[graft, grahft]
noun
the acquisition of money, gain, or advantage by dishonest, unfair, or illegal means, especially through the abuse of one's position or influence in politics, business, etc.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/graft
Thanks. I wasn't familiar with the second meaning of the word. Apparently the two words are very similar but graft is more commonly associated with politics. Here's an interesting article on the differences between the two words:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... rift-graft
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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: The Wall

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:15 pm

Superbone wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:05 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:18 am
graft
[graft, grahft]
noun
the acquisition of money, gain, or advantage by dishonest, unfair, or illegal means, especially through the abuse of one's position or influence in politics, business, etc.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/graft
Thanks. I wasn't familiar with the second meaning of the word. Apparently the two words are very similar but graft is more commonly associated with politics. Here's an interesting article on the differences between the two words:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... rift-graft
The funny (in a dark way) reason I know of the specific use of this definition is because grafting has been an epidemic in Korean business and politics for decades. They even passed an “anti-grafting” law recently. Kinda sucks since I technically work for the Korean government haha.
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Superbone
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Re: The Wall

Post by Superbone » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:27 am

Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:15 pm
Superbone wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:05 pm
Flagrant Fowl wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:18 am
graft
[graft, grahft]
noun
the acquisition of money, gain, or advantage by dishonest, unfair, or illegal means, especially through the abuse of one's position or influence in politics, business, etc.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/graft
Thanks. I wasn't familiar with the second meaning of the word. Apparently the two words are very similar but graft is more commonly associated with politics. Here's an interesting article on the differences between the two words:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... rift-graft
The funny (in a dark way) reason I know of the specific use of this definition is because grafting has been an epidemic in Korean business and politics for decades. They even passed an “anti-grafting” law recently. Kinda sucks since I technically work for the Korean government haha.
Heh. Don’t get caught grafting!
O_Gardino: "Ntilikina is going to lead the NBA in assists once he gets going[2025]..."

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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: The Wall

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:58 pm

Well, here we go. Trump has declared a national emergency to build his wall.

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/15/69501272 ... order-wall

Do any of the folks who post here support this decision by the President? Do you agree that this constitutes a national emergency, and that the President is doing the right thing by making this declaration?

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carey
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Re: The Wall

Post by carey » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:03 pm

Nah. It's ridiculous and he's already being sued by the ACLU.
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In2ition
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Re: The Wall

Post by In2ition » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:08 pm

I do not support declaring a national emergency over the wall. I don't support the decision to do so. It cheapens the use of national emergency declarations, imo.

It's not a surprise that the ACLU is filing suit, and I expect others to follow. Eventually, it will probably be taken to the Supreme court.
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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: The Wall

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:27 pm

Yes, this may end up in the Supreme Court, which Trump has unfairly influenced:

- He appointed Neil Gorsuch, a justice who should have been appointed by President Obama. Mitch McConnell stalled for *a full year* without voting on or holding a hearing on Obama's rightful appointee, Merrick Garland.

- He appointed Brett Kavanaugh, who was shown in his appointment hearing to be flagrantly partisan, claiming that there was a liberal conspiracy against him driven by the Clintons and George Soros among others. He also very likely sexually assaulted a woman in high school.

So I'm not exactly looking forward to this particular Supreme Court deciding this issue. If the Court is stacked by this corrupt President, what checks are left on his power?

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Nodack
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Re: The Wall

Post by Nodack » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:47 pm

Of course it’s not an emergency. Trump even today basically said so. It’s an emergency for him because he needs a win and the wall is red meat for his base. Will it make any difference in illegal immigration? I don’t know and I really don’t care.

Yes Trump was able to stack the Supreme Court with Republicans somewhat and that has shifted things but, Supreme Court Justices have a way of suprising people. Kavenaugh sounds like a 100% partisan Republican who hates Dems from his testimony. Roberts is supposed to be a Republican but, has sided with Dems on abortion.

People in power tend to abuse that power and imo abuses in power can have repercussions. Trump has been almost bulletproof. Things he’s done or said that would have taken down others just bounces right off him and he’s had dozens of those things and still they believe every word he says no matter how completely insane it is.

Take today. Trump said Obama would have started a war with NK. WTF? He was President 8 years and never came remotely close and yet Trump makes his bold statement that sounds like fact even though any sane person knows it’s total BS. Now his base will claim Obama tried to start a war with NK and Trump saved the day.

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In2ition
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Re: The Wall

Post by In2ition » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:51 pm

The Constitution's language is occasionally ambiguous, but what's ambiguous about this? : "No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law" (Article 1, Section 9)? NO money, it says; not even $8 billion for a big, beautiful border wall.

I'm not sure how Trump will get his wall with an Emergency declaration, even with a stacked court.
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Nodack
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Re: The Wall

Post by Nodack » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:31 pm

Hard to say. So much propaganda out there you can’t really know what is what. Some say he can do it and some say he can’t. It sounds like he can declare an emergency and take funds from other things like military projects etc. Other Presidents have declared emergencies but those were usually real emergencies like epidemics or military retaliation I thought. Trumps is all about his ego and his vanity project he promised that Congress won’t fund.

He wants his wall and is willing to destroy earth and everybody on the planet to make it happen. I don’t really give a s*** about the wall one way or the other. If more wall gets built it won’t be the end of the world and if no wall gets built it won’t be the end of the world either. The cost of a wall is about the cost of a new aircraft carrier. The debt is only 22 trillion. What’s another 16 billion?


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Superbone
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Re: The Wall

Post by Superbone » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:02 am

O_Gardino: "Ntilikina is going to lead the NBA in assists once he gets going[2025]..."

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In2ition
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Re: The Wall

Post by In2ition » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:17 am

Superbone wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:02 am
What's the solution?
That's a good question. Idk, but doing nothing and thinking there isn't a problem certainly doesn't help.
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Superbone
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Re: The Wall

Post by Superbone » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:54 am

In2ition wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:17 am
Superbone wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:02 am
What's the solution?
That's a good question. Idk, but doing nothing and thinking there isn't a problem certainly doesn't help.
Most seem to agree that a wall is not the solution. There is no easy fix. It's human nature to want to change from a bad environment to a good one. How about we help them make a better living experience in Mexico?
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In2ition
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Re: The Wall

Post by In2ition » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:08 pm

Superbone wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:54 am
In2ition wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:17 am
Superbone wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:02 am
What's the solution?
That's a good question. Idk, but doing nothing and thinking there isn't a problem certainly doesn't help.
Most seem to agree that a wall is not the solution. There is no easy fix. It's human nature to want to change from a bad environment to a good one. How about we help them make a better living experience in Mexico?
Idk about most. Obama, Pelosi and Schumer all were for a Wall not that long ago. But you know...orange man bad.

I agree that there is no easy fix. I also think that fixing the problems in their own countries would be the best. The article said that they came from 40 different countries, so they aren't all coming from Mexico or even Central and South America. Given time and resources, a wall is easily overcome. I don't think anyone believes that it's a permanent solution, and if they do, that's just silly. I think it's believed that the Wall helps with the time between detection and apprehension of most of those crossing illegally.
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Nodack
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Re: The Wall

Post by Nodack » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:50 pm

Idk about most. Obama, Pelosi and Schumer all were for a Wall not that long ago. But you know...orange man bad.
They were for a fence, not a wall and it was a Republicans were in control and Dems had a choice between the fence and making illegal crossings a felony so, they chose the fence as the lesser of two evils.

Fact-check: Did top Democrats vote for a border wall in 2006?
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... wall-2006/
The Secure Fence Act of 2006, which was passed by a Republican Congress and signed by President George W. Bush, authorized about 700 miles of fencing along certain stretches of land between the border of the United States and Mexico.

The act also authorized the use of more vehicle barriers, checkpoints and lighting to curb illegal immigration, and the use of advanced technology such as satellites and unmanned aerial vehicles.

At the time the act was being considered, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer were all members of the Senate.

It’s also worth noting that the political context surrounding the 2006 vote was different, too.

Democrats normally in favor of looser immigration laws saw the Secure Fence Act of 2006 as the lesser of two evils, according to a Boston Globe report that detailed the legislative process. Around that same time, the House passed legislation that would make any undocumented immigrant a felon.

Mulvaney said that Obama, Schumer and Clinton voted for a border wall in 2006.

They did vote for the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which authorized building a fence along about 700 miles of the border between the United States and Mexico.

Still, the fence they voted for is not as substantial as the wall Trump is proposing. Trump himself called the 2006 fence a "nothing wall."

Mulvaney’s statement is partially accurate, but ignores important context. We rate it Half True.

orange man bad
Trump has declared war on a LOT of people IRS, FBI, DOJ, CIA, Intelligence community in general, military generals, veterans, Democrats, minorities, media, allies, etc. and said a lot of nasty things about them that wasn't true that he just makes up in his head. His lie meter is up to over 9000 times since being elected. He has made a lot of enemies. Trump promised hundreds of times during the campaign that Mexico would pay for the wall. Nobody wants to help him do anything at this point except Republicans who are afraid he might say something nasty on Twitter about them. IMO Trump has brought it all on himself by being a douchebag.

Trump says illegal immigration has become a National Emergency but, according to the stats I see that is not true.

Image

Image

According to those stats crossings are WAY down compared to years past.

Why do people try to cross? Trump says they are all drug dealers and rapists and maybe a few aren't. I think that is a horrible thing to say that was only said to rile up his base and demonize those trying to cross. I know some of them are drug dealers and rapists. There are drug dealers and rapists who are Americans too. That doesn't mean we are all drug dealers and rapists. IMO the vast majority of those trying to cross are just people trying to escape violence and poverty looking for a better life in America.

The Mexican Cartel from what I have seen pretty much runs Mexico. You are either on their payroll or dead. They are so powerful because they have so much money. They have so much money because they supply America with drugs. We declared war on them and drugs many decades ago and that war has been a complete failure. We poured money into attacking the Cartel and it hasn't slowed them down one tiny little bit. Recently there States have started making marijuana legal. That will have more impact on the Cartel that anything else IMO. Instead of Americans paying money to the Cartel for pot, we pay Americans that grew it for it. The high taxes people are paying for pot go for schools and infrastructure etc. That has to be hurting the Cartels bottom line. They have many other ways they make money like human trafficking, Heroin, Meth and Cocaine. Those won't be sold in the US legally and will still be the Cartels area still but, a huge slice of their income is drying up and that has to be a good thing.

Until Mexico and other countries South of our border become places people want to live we will always have a problem with illegal immigration. How do we help that happen or do we even care? I don't feel illegal immigration is a high priority. We have been sort of trying to keep Mexicans out of our country ever since we stole the land from them over a hundred years ago and in my lifetime of living in a border state I have yet to see a border emergency that has effected me in any way.

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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: The Wall

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:59 pm

Nodack with the mic drop.
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Superbone
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Re: The Wall

Post by Superbone » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:10 am

Thanks, Nodack.

Trump IS bad. Why do some like to trivialize it by saying "orange man bad"? You think he's good? Really?
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Marty [Mori Chu]
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Re: The Wall

Post by Marty [Mori Chu] » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:00 am

The Democrats are not for a wall and never have been. And, border crossings are down, not up. And, immigrants, including illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than citizens.

There is no crisis here. We should literally do nothing about this "problem."

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