NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

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In2ition
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by In2ition » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:18 am

pickle wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:22 pm
O_Gardino wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:40 am
pickle wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:20 am
....

I kind of started this discussion with the mentioning of Chriss, Bender, Josh, etc, but I want to get back to my original point again, which is that, if we had invested a first rounder in Jerome last year, I hope we can give him a real chance before we draft another PG in the first round to supplant him, especially since we also have Okobo and Carter who we are "developing".
I've made the same point with many of our redundancies over the last decade, but in this case I don't think any of our guys project as starters. We have 4 guys who are a long long way from being able to handle 30 minutes. If we have a chance to get a guy with potential to start and possible be an all-star, we need to take that guy. For what it's worth, there probably won't be a PG who moves the needle for me when it's our turn to pick.
I'm not saying I think Okobo and Carter (or Melton before that) are the answer. My point is, if we weren't so sure that Jerome was the answer last year, why did we draft him then when we had two guys on the bench that could develop into more if given proper coaching and opportunity? If we are so ready to give up on Jerome now and adding another middling PG prospect in this year's draft, then we made a mistake trading the 2020 pick for the pick used to take him. I prefer not to have too much redundancy in positions that require development. If we don't think Jerome is the answer, or Okobo, as much as it pains me to say, we should cut our losses and move on. If we do that, then I'm okay picking up another pg in this year's draft.
I get your frustration with giving up on young players. It's a great point. Okobo was an afterthought this year and many thought he was going to be cut in training camp. It didn't help when Jerome rolled his ankle bad before the season, and at that point they couldn't cut Okobo. Okobo is interesting, but he just doesn't have a great feel for the game that you need at that position. Like Carter, he's a better SG that doesn't have to make a decision, but he makes bad passes and isn't the defender that Carter is.

I'm not keeping from drafting a PG because of Jerome. He's a nice kid and he has some good skills, but if he can't improve his quickness, flexibility and athleticism, I just don't know how he will stay in the league. There is going to be 6+ PGs in this draft that are going to be better than both of them combined, imo.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by O_Gardino » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:30 am

I certainly don't want to add another middling PG prospect at 10. If we end up drafting high, though, I think we need to consider the PGs available.
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pickle
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by pickle » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:45 pm

In2ition wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:18 am
I get your frustration with giving up on young players. It's a great point. Okobo was an afterthought this year and many thought he was going to be cut in training camp. It didn't help when Jerome rolled his ankle bad before the season, and at that point they couldn't cut Okobo. Okobo is interesting, but he just doesn't have a great feel for the game that you need at that position. Like Carter, he's a better SG that doesn't have to make a decision, but he makes bad passes and isn't the defender that Carter is.

I'm not keeping from drafting a PG because of Jerome. He's a nice kid and he has some good skills, but if he can't improve his quickness, flexibility and athleticism, I just don't know how he will stay in the league. There is going to be 6+ PGs in this draft that are going to be better than both of them combined, imo.
I get all of that and I appreciate your soothing words. That Jerome has less than ideal physical attributes was known before we drafted him, no? What gets me is that, it appears we saw him as a very promising prospect and actively went after him. It's not like we had a pick and had to use it and he was the man. We actually traded away a future first for a pick in that draft to nab him. A draft prospect is like a new car... bit cliche but fairly accurate. Who's to say that in one year's time we won't be salivating for yet another pg prospect and saying similar things about whomever we pick up in this coming draft? Okobo was supposed to be the steal of the last draft, and Melton was supposed to be a late lottery talent that dropped due to controversy at USC that year. I hope the front office can show some consistency and logic in its drafting and development...

I'm with OG. If we see a surefire starter, of course we should go in. If we see another guy who needs 3 years to develop, I don't know that this franchise has the patience to do that.

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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by O_Gardino » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:21 pm

Besides, if we draft around #10, there will be impact players available at PF. No need to take a project.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by SunsRIt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:35 pm

pickle wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:45 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:18 am
I get your frustration with giving up on young players. It's a great point. Okobo was an afterthought this year and many thought he was going to be cut in training camp. It didn't help when Jerome rolled his ankle bad before the season, and at that point they couldn't cut Okobo. Okobo is interesting, but he just doesn't have a great feel for the game that you need at that position. Like Carter, he's a better SG that doesn't have to make a decision, but he makes bad passes and isn't the defender that Carter is.

I'm not keeping from drafting a PG because of Jerome. He's a nice kid and he has some good skills, but if he can't improve his quickness, flexibility and athleticism, I just don't know how he will stay in the league. There is going to be 6+ PGs in this draft that are going to be better than both of them combined, imo.
I get all of that and I appreciate your soothing words. That Jerome has less than ideal physical attributes was known before we drafted him, no? What gets me is that, it appears we saw him as a very promising prospect and actively went after him. It's not like we had a pick and had to use it and he was the man. We actually traded away a future first for a pick in that draft to nab him. A draft prospect is like a new car... bit cliche but fairly accurate. Who's to say that in one year's time we won't be salivating for yet another pg prospect and saying similar things about whomever we pick up in this coming draft? Okobo was supposed to be the steal of the last draft, and Melton was supposed to be a late lottery talent that dropped due to controversy at USC that year. I hope the front office can show some consistency and logic in its drafting and development...

I'm with OG. If we see a surefire starter, of course we should go in. If we see another guy who needs 3 years to develop, I don't know that this franchise has the patience to do that.
All this talk about Jerome’s game reminds me of Nash. He wasn’t considered athletic either and a productive college experience. We traded him to Dallas and his game developed. We got him back and he was on another level. Again, just like Ayton, I think we need to be patient.

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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by Superbone » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:46 pm

SunsRIt wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:35 pm
pickle wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:45 pm
In2ition wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:18 am
I get your frustration with giving up on young players. It's a great point. Okobo was an afterthought this year and many thought he was going to be cut in training camp. It didn't help when Jerome rolled his ankle bad before the season, and at that point they couldn't cut Okobo. Okobo is interesting, but he just doesn't have a great feel for the game that you need at that position. Like Carter, he's a better SG that doesn't have to make a decision, but he makes bad passes and isn't the defender that Carter is.

I'm not keeping from drafting a PG because of Jerome. He's a nice kid and he has some good skills, but if he can't improve his quickness, flexibility and athleticism, I just don't know how he will stay in the league. There is going to be 6+ PGs in this draft that are going to be better than both of them combined, imo.
I get all of that and I appreciate your soothing words. That Jerome has less than ideal physical attributes was known before we drafted him, no? What gets me is that, it appears we saw him as a very promising prospect and actively went after him. It's not like we had a pick and had to use it and he was the man. We actually traded away a future first for a pick in that draft to nab him. A draft prospect is like a new car... bit cliche but fairly accurate. Who's to say that in one year's time we won't be salivating for yet another pg prospect and saying similar things about whomever we pick up in this coming draft? Okobo was supposed to be the steal of the last draft, and Melton was supposed to be a late lottery talent that dropped due to controversy at USC that year. I hope the front office can show some consistency and logic in its drafting and development...

I'm with OG. If we see a surefire starter, of course we should go in. If we see another guy who needs 3 years to develop, I don't know that this franchise has the patience to do that.
All this talk about Jerome’s game reminds me of Nash. He wasn’t considered athletic either and a productive college experience. We traded him to Dallas and his game developed. We got him back and he was on another level. Again, just like Ayton, I think we need to be patient.
I was thinking the same thing about the Nash comparison. If Jerome has close to Nash’s drive, he could become a very good player. He has the size and smarts and a good shot.
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pickle
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by pickle » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:46 pm

I really don't mind being patient with Jerome. I'm not thrilled with drafting yet another PG prospect this year...

Btw how long was Nash's wingspan? Anybody know?

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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by O_Gardino » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:42 am

I don't buy the Nash comparison. We traded Nash because he was already a starting caliber point guard. Last time we played a game, Jerome was not better than Ellie Okobo.

I think it's a bit of a moot point. When we draft, there probably won't be a great PG available.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by O_Gardino » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:47 am

I'm not thrilled with the free agents available, either.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by Indy » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:54 am

O_Gardino wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:42 am
I don't buy the Nash comparison. We traded Nash because he was already a starting caliber point guard. Last time we played a game, Jerome was not better than Ellie Okobo.

I think it's a bit of a moot point. When we draft, there probably won't be a great PG available.
We traded him because he was our 3rd best PG on the team and needed help in other places. But yeah, they aren't close yet.

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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by LazarusLong » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:36 pm

Nash was stuck behind Jason Kidd and Kevin Johnson, two halfway decent PGs (although KJ was becoming more injury prone).
The year before, he was battling Kidd, KJ, Sam Cassell and Rumeal Robinson for minutes (albeit for part of the season with Sam-I-Am and RR).

As part of the trade to Dallas, the Suns picked up a first rounder that became Shawn Marion.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:04 pm

pickle wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:22 am

Honestly I never quite understood the Jerome selection... why are we in such a rush to draft more point guards when we didn't know what to do with the ones we already had on the roster (at the time Melton and Okobo, now Carter and Okobo, and Lecque).
I didn't have any problem drafting another point guard; none of those other guys made a compelling case that they were the/an answer. However, I did have a problem spending a first rounder on someone who looked like they couldn't compete at the NBA level.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:07 pm

ShelC wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:53 am
I think Jones/Monty/the FO knew they needed winning college vets on the roster, if only to bring a work ethic and professionalism to the lockerroom and practice court.
You can find that in undrafted free agents; you don't have to burn 1st rounders to accomplish that.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:12 pm

In2ition wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:22 am
Okobo was by far the worst player on the floor and made matters worse when he saw the floor for the vast majority of games. He had a few decent games, but they couldn't come close to erasing how bad the team played when he saw the floor last year.
This feels a little exaggerated, but ultimately it doesn't change the fact that Okobo wasn't/isn't a plus. But I think that is more a product of being a raw, foreign prospect than it is an indication that he won't develop to be a good player.
2020 Draft: Tyrese Haliburton. Paul Reed. Aaron Nesmith. Theo Maledon. Malik Fitts. Tyler Bey. Jalen Smith. Derrick Alston Jr. Ashton Hagans. Markus Howard.

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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:14 pm

O_Gardino wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:00 am
None of our backup guards earned their minutes last year. They were by far the worst players in the rotation.
One of the reasons why I feel Trey Burke is a worthwhile acquisition.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:18 pm

Split T wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:15 pm
Has anyone watched a lot of haliburton? He has good shooting numbers, but I have heard that he’s not much of a pull up threat.
I've seen two games, and I think have two more on the DVR. I think he is more apt to go for a floater than look for a pull-up jumpshot.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by INFORMER » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:25 pm

Indy wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:54 am
O_Gardino wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:42 am
I don't buy the Nash comparison. We traded Nash because he was already a starting caliber point guard. Last time we played a game, Jerome was not better than Ellie Okobo.

I think it's a bit of a moot point. When we draft, there probably won't be a great PG available.
We traded him because he was our 3rd best PG on the team and needed help in other places. But yeah, they aren't close yet.
Exactly, Indy.

I felt good about Nash after his rookie year. I didn't think he would be an All-Star, but I thought he would be a good player. I can't say any of that about Jerome.
2020 Draft: Tyrese Haliburton. Paul Reed. Aaron Nesmith. Theo Maledon. Malik Fitts. Tyler Bey. Jalen Smith. Derrick Alston Jr. Ashton Hagans. Markus Howard.

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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by Flagrant Fowl » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:49 pm

I think Ty Jerome's ceiling is TJ McConnell.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by In2ition » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:17 am

INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:12 pm
In2ition wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:22 am
Okobo was by far the worst player on the floor and made matters worse when he saw the floor for the vast majority of games. He had a few decent games, but they couldn't come close to erasing how bad the team played when he saw the floor last year.
This feels a little exaggerated, but ultimately it doesn't change the fact that Okobo wasn't/isn't a plus. But I think that is more a product of being a raw, foreign prospect than it is an indication that he won't develop to be a good player.
I could be exaggerating it only slightly, and I agree with you on the rest.
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Re: NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

Post by Indy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:49 am

In2ition wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:17 am
INFORMER wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:12 pm
In2ition wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:22 am
Okobo was by far the worst player on the floor and made matters worse when he saw the floor for the vast majority of games. He had a few decent games, but they couldn't come close to erasing how bad the team played when he saw the floor last year.
This feels a little exaggerated, but ultimately it doesn't change the fact that Okobo wasn't/isn't a plus. But I think that is more a product of being a raw, foreign prospect than it is an indication that he won't develop to be a good player.
I could be exaggerating it only slightly, and I agree with you on the rest.
A lot of the advanced stats back you up, at least in the bottom 2 of rotation players.

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