The 2021 Suns Offseason

Discussion of the league and of our favorite team.
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pickle
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by pickle »

What does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.

Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.

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Mori Chu
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Mori Chu »

pickle wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 am
What does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.

Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
Simmons' situation has some key differences to Ayton's. For starters, Simmons has shown some huge holes in his game (unwillingness to shoot down the stretch, fear of being fouled, horrid FT shooting, the general yips, etc.) in multiple playoff runs. And this is after the team has already maxed him out and embraced him as one half of their two-star system. If Simmons had just played superb basketball en route to a Philly Finals run, and then Philly told him they weren't maxing him out, that would be different.

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

pickle wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 am
What does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.

Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
No, it doesn't fall under one of those signing scenarios. We will either not match if he makes it clear he doesn't want to be here, or like I said, we'll sign-and-trade him for unequal value. That's what happened in 2005 with Joe Johnson.

If he wants out next summer, we're not going to make him stay.

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Indy
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:55 am
pickle wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 am
What does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.

Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
No, it doesn't fall under one of those signing scenarios. We will either not match if he makes it clear he doesn't want to be here, or like I said, we'll sign-and-trade him for unequal value. That's what happened in 2005 with Joe Johnson.

If he wants out next summer, we're not going to make him stay.
To start, I am still pissed at Robert Sarver for the Joe Johnson fiasco, so I hear where you are coming from.

For the Joe Johnson thing, they were arguing over $10M over the life of the contract. In the end, Sarver said go out and prove to me that you are worth it. Joe went out and had an amazing season, easily proving it. So they came back to the table, and Sarver offered up THE SAME CONTRACT?!? Not a penny more. So Joe and his agent said fuck off, see you later. This is all well-documented and confirmed by former Suns org folks and Joe's folks.

Could that happen again? Maybe. But probably only if James Jones really thinks Ayton is only worth what he offered him. And maybe he is. If all of those things are true, then yeah, maybe we will have to trade him for more players, but ones that are not as good. But right now, in James Jones I Trust (at least when it comes to building a team).

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

I feel like people are too focused on what they consider Ayton to be worth individually, in a vaccuum, instead of what he is worth paying to keep this team together. Isn't keeping a championship contender together worth a lot?

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Indy
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:10 am
I feel like people are too focused on what they consider Ayton to be worth individually, in a vaccuum, instead of what he is worth paying to keep this team together. Isn't keeping a championship contender together worth a lot?
Yes it is. But the cap is built to be limiting, and your GM needs to figure out ways to keep a team making a team better while managing the cap. Is it worth keeping DA happy if it means we can't re-sign other guys and Book decides to leave in 2 years?

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In2ition
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by In2ition »

Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 am
JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:55 am
pickle wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 am
What does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.

Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
No, it doesn't fall under one of those signing scenarios. We will either not match if he makes it clear he doesn't want to be here, or like I said, we'll sign-and-trade him for unequal value. That's what happened in 2005 with Joe Johnson.

If he wants out next summer, we're not going to make him stay.
To start, I am still pissed at Robert Sarver for the Joe Johnson fiasco, so I hear where you are coming from.

For the Joe Johnson thing, they were arguing over $10M over the life of the contract. In the end, Sarver said go out and prove to me that you are worth it. Joe went out and had an amazing season, easily proving it. So they came back to the table, and Sarver offered up THE SAME CONTRACT?!? Not a penny more. So Joe and his agent said fuck off, see you later. This is all well-documented and confirmed by former Suns org folks and Joe's folks.

Could that happen again? Maybe. But probably only if James Jones really thinks Ayton is only worth what he offered him. And maybe he is. If all of those things are true, then yeah, maybe we will have to trade him for more players, but ones that are not as good. But right now, in James Jones I Trust (at least when it comes to building a team).
Actually, the best offer prior to the '04-'05 season was $45 million, but Joe's camp was asking for $50 mil over the life of the contract. Didn't Sarver tell Joe that he would match the Hawks contract offer, but he asked Joe if he wanted to be here? Joe was already pissed, so he said no, but also said that he would be a good player and attitude if he came back. That's how I remember it. I may have forgotten the same contract.
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JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

In2ition wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:44 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 am
JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:55 am
pickle wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 am
What does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.

Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
No, it doesn't fall under one of those signing scenarios. We will either not match if he makes it clear he doesn't want to be here, or like I said, we'll sign-and-trade him for unequal value. That's what happened in 2005 with Joe Johnson.

If he wants out next summer, we're not going to make him stay.
To start, I am still pissed at Robert Sarver for the Joe Johnson fiasco, so I hear where you are coming from.

For the Joe Johnson thing, they were arguing over $10M over the life of the contract. In the end, Sarver said go out and prove to me that you are worth it. Joe went out and had an amazing season, easily proving it. So they came back to the table, and Sarver offered up THE SAME CONTRACT?!? Not a penny more. So Joe and his agent said fuck off, see you later. This is all well-documented and confirmed by former Suns org folks and Joe's folks.

Could that happen again? Maybe. But probably only if James Jones really thinks Ayton is only worth what he offered him. And maybe he is. If all of those things are true, then yeah, maybe we will have to trade him for more players, but ones that are not as good. But right now, in James Jones I Trust (at least when it comes to building a team).
Actually, the best offer prior to the '04-'05 season was $45 million, but Joe's camp was asking for $50 mil over the life of the contract. Didn't Sarver tell Joe that he would match the Hawks contract offer, but he asked Joe if he wanted to be here? Joe was already pissed, so he said no, but also said that he would be a good player and attitude if he came back. That's how I remember it. I may have forgotten the same contract.
Yes, at the time it was said that Joe told Sarver that he wanted to leave but that if Sarver matched the offer he would be willing to play, and Sarver still didn't match it, even though he had "threatened" to. So just imagine if Ayton says he wants out and doesn't even offer a good attitude lol. He ain't staying in that scenario, I can tell you that much.

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:13 am
JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:10 am
I feel like people are too focused on what they consider Ayton to be worth individually, in a vaccuum, instead of what he is worth paying to keep this team together. Isn't keeping a championship contender together worth a lot?
Yes it is. But the cap is built to be limiting, and your GM needs to figure out ways to keep a team making a team better while managing the cap. Is it worth keeping DA happy if it means we can't re-sign other guys and Book decides to leave in 2 years?
2 years of keeping the team together is better than 1 year.

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Indy
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Indy »

The reports said that Sarver asked Joe on the phone if he wanted him to match the contract or not. Joe said no. To be clear, you have to say no to that, no matter who you are. You can't tell your owner that you went out and got a team that believes in you to give you a max contract, you signed the contract to play for them, but then told your old team that didn't want to pay you last year that you wanted them to match. That would be a shitty thing to do.

But Sarver needs to make that call and decide. He decided (along with his brain trust) that he wanted the pu pu platter, and we were lucky Diaw turned into the player he did for us.

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Indy
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Indy »

JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:20 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:13 am
JeremyG wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:10 am
I feel like people are too focused on what they consider Ayton to be worth individually, in a vaccuum, instead of what he is worth paying to keep this team together. Isn't keeping a championship contender together worth a lot?
Yes it is. But the cap is built to be limiting, and your GM needs to figure out ways to keep a team making a team better while managing the cap. Is it worth keeping DA happy if it means we can't re-sign other guys and Book decides to leave in 2 years?
2 years of keeping the team together is better than 1 year.
You don't risk your two best players for your 3rd to 4th best player.

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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

Can we just move on for now, I really don’t want to discuss Ayton and his extension anymore, let’s talk about the team. Everyone has their minds made up and no one is changing anyone’s opinion except for whatever Ayton does on the court this season.

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Indy
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Indy »

Split T wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:28 pm
Can we just move on for now, I really don’t want to discuss Ayton and his extension anymore, let’s talk about the team. Everyone has their minds made up and no one is changing anyone’s opinion except for whatever Ayton does on the court this season.
why don't you want to rehash the JJ negotiation split?!

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Split T
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Split T »

Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:33 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:28 pm
Can we just move on for now, I really don’t want to discuss Ayton and his extension anymore, let’s talk about the team. Everyone has their minds made up and no one is changing anyone’s opinion except for whatever Ayton does on the court this season.
why don't you want to rehash the JJ negotiation split?!
Only if we can also bring McDyess and that time he escaped to Denver into the discussion as well. Haha

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Cap
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Cap »

Split T wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:12 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:33 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:28 pm
Can we just move on for now, I really don’t want to discuss Ayton and his extension anymore, let’s talk about the team. Everyone has their minds made up and no one is changing anyone’s opinion except for whatever Ayton does on the court this season.
why don't you want to rehash the JJ negotiation split?!
Only if we can also bring McDyess and that time he escaped to Denver into the discussion as well. Haha
I’ll never forgive Sarver for the Roby/DJ trade.

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Superbone
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Superbone »

Cap wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:22 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:12 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:33 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:28 pm
Can we just move on for now, I really don’t want to discuss Ayton and his extension anymore, let’s talk about the team. Everyone has their minds made up and no one is changing anyone’s opinion except for whatever Ayton does on the court this season.
why don't you want to rehash the JJ negotiation split?!
Only if we can also bring McDyess and that time he escaped to Denver into the discussion as well. Haha
I’ll never forgive Sarver for the Roby/DJ trade.
Or Dan Majerle.
"It should burn. It'll probably burn forever. But last season is done." - James Jones

"I want to be who I think I am." - Frank Kaminsky

"I don't think I've ever been that angry shooting a basketball." - Cam Johnson

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Flagrant Fowl
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Flagrant Fowl »

Superbone wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:48 pm
Cap wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:22 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:12 pm
Indy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:33 pm
Split T wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:28 pm
Can we just move on for now, I really don’t want to discuss Ayton and his extension anymore, let’s talk about the team. Everyone has their minds made up and no one is changing anyone’s opinion except for whatever Ayton does on the court this season.
why don't you want to rehash the JJ negotiation split?!
Only if we can also bring McDyess and that time he escaped to Denver into the discussion as well. Haha
I’ll never forgive Sarver for the Roby/DJ trade.
Or Dan Majerle.
I can't believe he called 'heads'.
UOducks4life in a previous life. Valar Morghulis.

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Mori Chu
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by Mori Chu »

I doubt we'll be "moving on" from talking about the Ayton topic for a long time. We're going to be watching his season with a sharp focus, debating about what he's worth and whether we can/should keep him. Like it or not, this is going to be the dominating topic of our whole season. If he struggles, folks will say he's upset about the contract. If he has a great game, folks will say he's a max player and Sarver/Jones screwed up. Buckle up because we're in for 82 games + playoffs of talking about this. That's just how it is.

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pickle
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by pickle »

If Jones doesn't match a contract just because Ayton asked him not to, then I will no longer trust in this organization. But until that happens, I'm with Indy... Jones hasn't done anything so egregious over the past few years that would have me *that* pessimistic. Let's see what happens.

JeremyG
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason

Post by JeremyG »

Jones is all about chemistry. I don't see why Jones would decide to keep a player here against his will, if he becomes truly unhappy with the organization (with or without threatening to sit out).

And if Ayton feels like he proved he's a max player this season, and they still won't give him the 5-year max, I could easily see him demanding out.

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