The 2021 Suns Offseason
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
What does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.
Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Simmons' situation has some key differences to Ayton's. For starters, Simmons has shown some huge holes in his game (unwillingness to shoot down the stretch, fear of being fouled, horrid FT shooting, the general yips, etc.) in multiple playoff runs. And this is after the team has already maxed him out and embraced him as one half of their two-star system. If Simmons had just played superb basketball en route to a Philly Finals run, and then Philly told him they weren't maxing him out, that would be different.pickle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 amWhat does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.
Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
No, it doesn't fall under one of those signing scenarios. We will either not match if he makes it clear he doesn't want to be here, or like I said, we'll sign-and-trade him for unequal value. That's what happened in 2005 with Joe Johnson.pickle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 amWhat does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.
Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
If he wants out next summer, we're not going to make him stay.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
To start, I am still pissed at Robert Sarver for the Joe Johnson fiasco, so I hear where you are coming from.JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:55 amNo, it doesn't fall under one of those signing scenarios. We will either not match if he makes it clear he doesn't want to be here, or like I said, we'll sign-and-trade him for unequal value. That's what happened in 2005 with Joe Johnson.pickle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 amWhat does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.
Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
If he wants out next summer, we're not going to make him stay.
For the Joe Johnson thing, they were arguing over $10M over the life of the contract. In the end, Sarver said go out and prove to me that you are worth it. Joe went out and had an amazing season, easily proving it. So they came back to the table, and Sarver offered up THE SAME CONTRACT?!? Not a penny more. So Joe and his agent said fuck off, see you later. This is all well-documented and confirmed by former Suns org folks and Joe's folks.
Could that happen again? Maybe. But probably only if James Jones really thinks Ayton is only worth what he offered him. And maybe he is. If all of those things are true, then yeah, maybe we will have to trade him for more players, but ones that are not as good. But right now, in James Jones I Trust (at least when it comes to building a team).
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
I feel like people are too focused on what they consider Ayton to be worth individually, in a vaccuum, instead of what he is worth paying to keep this team together. Isn't keeping a championship contender together worth a lot?
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Yes it is. But the cap is built to be limiting, and your GM needs to figure out ways to keep a team making a team better while managing the cap. Is it worth keeping DA happy if it means we can't re-sign other guys and Book decides to leave in 2 years?
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Actually, the best offer prior to the '04-'05 season was $45 million, but Joe's camp was asking for $50 mil over the life of the contract. Didn't Sarver tell Joe that he would match the Hawks contract offer, but he asked Joe if he wanted to be here? Joe was already pissed, so he said no, but also said that he would be a good player and attitude if he came back. That's how I remember it. I may have forgotten the same contract.Indy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 amTo start, I am still pissed at Robert Sarver for the Joe Johnson fiasco, so I hear where you are coming from.JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:55 amNo, it doesn't fall under one of those signing scenarios. We will either not match if he makes it clear he doesn't want to be here, or like I said, we'll sign-and-trade him for unequal value. That's what happened in 2005 with Joe Johnson.pickle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 amWhat does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.
Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
If he wants out next summer, we're not going to make him stay.
For the Joe Johnson thing, they were arguing over $10M over the life of the contract. In the end, Sarver said go out and prove to me that you are worth it. Joe went out and had an amazing season, easily proving it. So they came back to the table, and Sarver offered up THE SAME CONTRACT?!? Not a penny more. So Joe and his agent said fuck off, see you later. This is all well-documented and confirmed by former Suns org folks and Joe's folks.
Could that happen again? Maybe. But probably only if James Jones really thinks Ayton is only worth what he offered him. And maybe he is. If all of those things are true, then yeah, maybe we will have to trade him for more players, but ones that are not as good. But right now, in James Jones I Trust (at least when it comes to building a team).
"When we all think alike, nobody is thinking" - Walter Lippmann
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them." ~ Frederick Douglass
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Yes, at the time it was said that Joe told Sarver that he wanted to leave but that if Sarver matched the offer he would be willing to play, and Sarver still didn't match it, even though he had "threatened" to. So just imagine if Ayton says he wants out and doesn't even offer a good attitude lol. He ain't staying in that scenario, I can tell you that much.In2ition wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:44 pmActually, the best offer prior to the '04-'05 season was $45 million, but Joe's camp was asking for $50 mil over the life of the contract. Didn't Sarver tell Joe that he would match the Hawks contract offer, but he asked Joe if he wanted to be here? Joe was already pissed, so he said no, but also said that he would be a good player and attitude if he came back. That's how I remember it. I may have forgotten the same contract.Indy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 amTo start, I am still pissed at Robert Sarver for the Joe Johnson fiasco, so I hear where you are coming from.JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:55 amNo, it doesn't fall under one of those signing scenarios. We will either not match if he makes it clear he doesn't want to be here, or like I said, we'll sign-and-trade him for unequal value. That's what happened in 2005 with Joe Johnson.pickle wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:24 amWhat does that mean, force his way out? He'll need to sign some form of a contract, and he can't sign one with another team that we can't match, so whatever pouting he does, still falls under one of those signing scenarios.
Also, if DA's psyche is so fragile that this would make him want to leave, I would feel bad that we prematurely broke up a championship contender, but I might not be *that* sorry to see him go. And I've long been one of the DA defenders on this board. If I'm a 76ers fan, I'd want nothing to do with Simmons, for instance.
If he wants out next summer, we're not going to make him stay.
For the Joe Johnson thing, they were arguing over $10M over the life of the contract. In the end, Sarver said go out and prove to me that you are worth it. Joe went out and had an amazing season, easily proving it. So they came back to the table, and Sarver offered up THE SAME CONTRACT?!? Not a penny more. So Joe and his agent said fuck off, see you later. This is all well-documented and confirmed by former Suns org folks and Joe's folks.
Could that happen again? Maybe. But probably only if James Jones really thinks Ayton is only worth what he offered him. And maybe he is. If all of those things are true, then yeah, maybe we will have to trade him for more players, but ones that are not as good. But right now, in James Jones I Trust (at least when it comes to building a team).
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
2 years of keeping the team together is better than 1 year.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
The reports said that Sarver asked Joe on the phone if he wanted him to match the contract or not. Joe said no. To be clear, you have to say no to that, no matter who you are. You can't tell your owner that you went out and got a team that believes in you to give you a max contract, you signed the contract to play for them, but then told your old team that didn't want to pay you last year that you wanted them to match. That would be a shitty thing to do.
But Sarver needs to make that call and decide. He decided (along with his brain trust) that he wanted the pu pu platter, and we were lucky Diaw turned into the player he did for us.
But Sarver needs to make that call and decide. He decided (along with his brain trust) that he wanted the pu pu platter, and we were lucky Diaw turned into the player he did for us.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
You don't risk your two best players for your 3rd to 4th best player.JeremyG wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:20 pm2 years of keeping the team together is better than 1 year.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Can we just move on for now, I really don’t want to discuss Ayton and his extension anymore, let’s talk about the team. Everyone has their minds made up and no one is changing anyone’s opinion except for whatever Ayton does on the court this season.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
why don't you want to rehash the JJ negotiation split?!
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Or Dan Majerle.Cap wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:22 pmI’ll never forgive Sarver for the Roby/DJ trade.
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
I can't believe he called 'heads'.Superbone wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:48 pmOr Dan Majerle.Cap wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:22 pmI’ll never forgive Sarver for the Roby/DJ trade.
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Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
I doubt we'll be "moving on" from talking about the Ayton topic for a long time. We're going to be watching his season with a sharp focus, debating about what he's worth and whether we can/should keep him. Like it or not, this is going to be the dominating topic of our whole season. If he struggles, folks will say he's upset about the contract. If he has a great game, folks will say he's a max player and Sarver/Jones screwed up. Buckle up because we're in for 82 games + playoffs of talking about this. That's just how it is.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
If Jones doesn't match a contract just because Ayton asked him not to, then I will no longer trust in this organization. But until that happens, I'm with Indy... Jones hasn't done anything so egregious over the past few years that would have me *that* pessimistic. Let's see what happens.
Re: The 2021 Suns Offseason
Jones is all about chemistry. I don't see why Jones would decide to keep a player here against his will, if he becomes truly unhappy with the organization (with or without threatening to sit out).
And if Ayton feels like he proved he's a max player this season, and they still won't give him the 5-year max, I could easily see him demanding out.
And if Ayton feels like he proved he's a max player this season, and they still won't give him the 5-year max, I could easily see him demanding out.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.