Game Day: Suns (18-40) @ Jazz (29-28), Wed 2/14/18

[specialsauce]

" He'll never even be Robin Lopez, who has consistently been a defensive force and stays out of foul trouble. "

Let's look at some numbers,
In almost five years with the Suns, Len has averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
Lopez, in his four years with the Suns, also averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
So much for staying out of foul trouble.

Per 36 minutes, Lopez averaged 14.4 pts, 8.2 rebs, 2.1 blocks, 0.4 assts and 0.6 steals while with the Suns.
Len averaged 12.9 pts, 11.7 rebs, 1.9 blocks, 1.4 assts and 0.9 steals.

Len has a slight edge in 3 of 5 categories, all while playing with some historically bad Suns teams.
He never played with Nash or Hill or next to Amare.

And he endured Watson, who tried to make a freaking power forward out of him.
If he'd have started more, instead of Chandler, who management has allowed to make a farewell tour, I bet Len's stats would be even better.

Thank you for using facts here, DC

Sorry, I don't have a way to look this up but from what I remember Len has ended up in foul trouble so many times that we've counted on him when he's started. There's a reason Big Sauce took all his minutes when they sat Chandler last year. I don't remember RoLo being consistently in foul trouble and having to come out of an important game because of it. 4 fouls by both players don't mean the same thing, if you get 3 fouls at the end of a close game because you aren't giving up easy buckets or because you are intentionally fouling, that's different than racking them up within the first 5 minutes of being on the court. Obviously this is just off my own memory, but I don't recall ever being as frustrated at RoLo for this as Len.

[Furlanfufi]

I remember being frustated with both. RoLO annoyed me so much that I passed a trade for a worse player on my fantasy team because I didn't want to follow his playing.

[Indy]

" He'll never even be Robin Lopez, who has consistently been a defensive force and stays out of foul trouble. "

Let's look at some numbers,
In almost five years with the Suns, Len has averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
Lopez, in his four years with the Suns, also averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
So much for staying out of foul trouble.

Per 36 minutes, Lopez averaged 14.4 pts, 8.2 rebs, 2.1 blocks, 0.4 assts and 0.6 steals while with the Suns.
Len averaged 12.9 pts, 11.7 rebs, 1.9 blocks, 1.4 assts and 0.9 steals.

Len has a slight edge in 3 of 5 categories, all while playing with some historically bad Suns teams.
He never played with Nash or Hill or next to Amare.

And he endured Watson, who tried to make a freaking power forward out of him.
If he'd have started more, instead of Chandler, who management has allowed to make a farewell tour, I bet Len's stats would be even better.

Thank you for using facts here, DC

Sorry, I don't have a way to look this up but from what I remember Len has ended up in foul trouble so many times that we've counted on him when he's started. There's a reason Big Sauce took all his minutes when they sat Chandler last year. I don't remember RoLo being consistently in foul trouble and having to come out of an important game because of it. 4 fouls by both players don't mean the same thing, if you get 3 fouls at the end of a close game because you aren't giving up easy buckets or because you are intentionally fouling, that's different than racking them up within the first 5 minutes of being on the court. Obviously this is just off my own memory, but I don't recall ever being as frustrated at RoLo for this as Len.

It is your memory, or that you were in a different time in your life at that point. This place was screaming at RoLo every single game for this type of stuff, including never playing up to his size, and not being able to catch a pass that wasn't delivered by Nash.

[Indy]

It could simply be that we SUCK at player development. Have we ever turned a player from an unknown quantity into something much bigger than expected?

[Cap]

It could simply be that we SUCK at player development. Have we ever turned a player from an unknown quantity into something much bigger than expected?

Booker? He was #13 in the draft.

[Indy]

It could simply be that we SUCK at player development. Have we ever turned a player from an unknown quantity into something much bigger than expected?

Booker? He was #13 in the draft.

I thought we heard talk from nearly day 1 that he was a tremendous shooter and could score at will, he was just really young. He has obviously developed (on the offensive side at least), so I don't want to negate that, but I also can't say that was the team's doing. Maybe.

[Split T]

People thought he was a catch and shoot guy without much off the bounce/self creation to his game. That seems mostly to be the result of him just playing a role at Kentucky though.

[specialsauce]

" He'll never even be Robin Lopez, who has consistently been a defensive force and stays out of foul trouble. "

Let's look at some numbers,
In almost five years with the Suns, Len has averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
Lopez, in his four years with the Suns, also averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 minutes.
So much for staying out of foul trouble.

Per 36 minutes, Lopez averaged 14.4 pts, 8.2 rebs, 2.1 blocks, 0.4 assts and 0.6 steals while with the Suns.
Len averaged 12.9 pts, 11.7 rebs, 1.9 blocks, 1.4 assts and 0.9 steals.

Len has a slight edge in 3 of 5 categories, all while playing with some historically bad Suns teams.
He never played with Nash or Hill or next to Amare.

And he endured Watson, who tried to make a freaking power forward out of him.
If he'd have started more, instead of Chandler, who management has allowed to make a farewell tour, I bet Len's stats would be even better.

Thank you for using facts here, DC

Sorry, I don't have a way to look this up but from what I remember Len has ended up in foul trouble so many times that we've counted on him when he's started. There's a reason Big Sauce took all his minutes when they sat Chandler last year. I don't remember RoLo being consistently in foul trouble and having to come out of an important game because of it. 4 fouls by both players don't mean the same thing, if you get 3 fouls at the end of a close game because you aren't giving up easy buckets or because you are intentionally fouling, that's different than racking them up within the first 5 minutes of being on the court. Obviously this is just off my own memory, but I don't recall ever being as frustrated at RoLo for this as Len.

It is your memory, or that you were in a different time in your life at that point. This place was screaming at RoLo every single game for this type of stuff, including never playing up to his size, and not being able to catch a pass that wasn't delivered by Nash.

No I always liked RoLo. I thought he played a nice complement to Amare. Held his own defensively and never tried to do too much on the offensive end. He played within his game.

[Mori Chu]

It could simply be that we SUCK at player development. Have we ever turned a player from an unknown quantity into something much bigger than expected?

We have definitely blown some draft picks and failed to develop some guys. But I think your comment is too harsh. We have developed lots of guys, some of whom have been much better than expected for their draft position. Semi recent examples would include guys like Boris Diaw; Leandro Barbosa; Goran Dragic; TJ Warren; Devin Booker; Mar***f Morr*s; Alan Williams; and so on. You could list plenty of young guys we didn't develop, but to say that our team sucks at developing players, relative to the rest of the league, is a bit too much IMO.

[specialsauce]

Name me some players that sucked on the Suns and just "needed a chance at consistency and development" and then went on to be great for other teams?

We just haven't had great players in a while.

[Indy]

It could simply be that we SUCK at player development. Have we ever turned a player from an unknown quantity into something much bigger than expected?

We have definitely blown some draft picks and failed to develop some guys. But I think your comment is too harsh. We have developed lots of guys, some of whom have been much better than expected for their draft position. Semi recent examples would include guys like Boris Diaw; Leandro Barbosa; Goran Dragic; TJ Warren; Devin Booker; Mar***f Morr*s; Alan Williams; and so on. You could list plenty of young guys we didn't develop, but to say that our team sucks at developing players, relative to the rest of the league, is a bit too much IMO.

Going back to the previous decade is not a recent example. I was not talking about in the history of our franchise. I am talking about the current front office (and the last couple). So current examples you have are:

TJ Warren--What is he doing now that he wasn't doing in college? The knock on him was he had no outside shot, didn't rebound well, and not a good defender...
Booker--Yeah, he is an amazing scorer.
Morris--What did he do here that he didn't do in college?
Williams--He has played less than 800 minutes in his career.

[Indy]

Name me some players that sucked on the Suns and just "needed a chance at consistency and development" and then went on to be great for other teams?

We just haven't had great players in a while.

It doesn't have to be great. There are probably only 30 great players in the league at any time. You also need to develop raw players into solid starters by growing their game a bit. A 3 and D guy without D or a 3 doesn't do much. A stretch 4 that can hit shots at the top of the key but can't box out or rebound doesn't do much. But if you develop that part of their game, you have a starting caliber (or at least strong bench guy). We don't take players and make them more than they were when they came to us. You could argue that we just keep taking guys with potential and get it completely wrong, or that we just aren't good at refining their potential.

[specialsauce]

I don’t see guys leaving our team and developing any further

[Indy]

I don’t see guys leaving our team and developing any further

Michael Beasley.

[specialsauce]

I don’t see guys leaving our team and developing any further

M****** B******.

Man we have had some bad players with those initials

Marcus Banks
Michael Beasley

[Mori Chu]

TJ Warren--What is he doing now that he wasn't doing in college? The knock on him was he had no outside shot, didn't rebound well, and not a good defender...

I don't think you can dismiss Warren's development so blithely. TJ Warren is basically a 20 ppg NBA scorer. I think our FO and coaching staff (along with Warren himself) deserve some credit for that. Sure, he has the same general game he had in college. But plenty of college forwards come to the NBA and aren't able to translate it. Warren was a lot less consistent when he first got here. He has steadily improved and gotten better over the past couple years.

"The Suns FO/staff get no credit for developing Player X because he basically plays a similar kind of game as he played in college" is an unfair standard. If you apply that standard to every FO and every player, almost no team would get credit for any player development whatsoever.

[specialsauce]

The only thing he’s improved in his per 36 minute stats are his points. He has not improved significantly as a player otherwise in any statistic.

[Mori Chu]

The only thing he’s improved in his per 36 minute stats are his points. He has not improved significantly as a player otherwise in any statistic.

So what? He is a scorer. The fact that he has significantly improved at scoring, what we want from him, is good, yes?

I am not saying he has become an all-star or a phenomenal NBA player. I'm just saying that you can't simply dismiss him when you talk about our FO drafting and developing young players. He was a late 1st-round pick and has FAR exceeded expectations. Additional credit to the FO for getting him to sign to a very reasonable 4-year, $50m contract.

[Indy]

TJ Warren--What is he doing now that he wasn't doing in college? The knock on him was he had no outside shot, didn't rebound well, and not a good defender...

I don't think you can dismiss Warren's development so blithely. TJ Warren is basically a 20 ppg NBA scorer. I think our FO and coaching staff (along with Warren himself) deserve some credit for that. Sure, he has the same general game he had in college. But plenty of college forwards come to the NBA and aren't able to translate it. Warren was a lot less consistent when he first got here. He has steadily improved and gotten better over the past couple years.

"The Suns FO/staff get no credit for developing Player X because he basically plays a similar kind of game as he played in college" is an unfair standard. If you apply that standard to every FO and every player, almost no team would get credit for any player development whatsoever.

Warren was a premiere scorer in college. He led the ACC in scoring and was second in the entire NCAA. He led the NCAA in 2 pointers too. He is doing exactly what he was doing in college. I agree he is getting better with maturity, but I don't see him adding anything to his game. That is what I mean by development. Not simply doing what they already did a little better.

[Superbone]

TJ Warren--What is he doing now that he wasn't doing in college? The knock on him was he had no outside shot, didn't rebound well, and not a good defender...

I don't think you can dismiss Warren's development so blithely. TJ Warren is basically a 20 ppg NBA scorer. I think our FO and coaching staff (along with Warren himself) deserve some credit for that. Sure, he has the same general game he had in college. But plenty of college forwards come to the NBA and aren't able to translate it. Warren was a lot less consistent when he first got here. He has steadily improved and gotten better over the past couple years.

"The Suns FO/staff get no credit for developing Player X because he basically plays a similar kind of game as he played in college" is an unfair standard. If you apply that standard to every FO and every player, almost no team would get credit for any player development whatsoever.

Plus, in a redraft, he would go higher.