2020 Election Thread

[Indy]

It's fine. I'm not perfect. I'm sure I haven't been the nicest to people from time to time, and I admit I may have gone overboard on Indy(sorry Indy), even though I do think he's been an arrogant ass over time. It hit on my last nerve, and arrogance is the least admirable character trait imo. I don't like or appreciate bullies or bully tactics. I don't mind having disagreements with others, but it's hard to come into the political forum over the yrs, when you are ganged up on and some just come in to pile on without actually bringing in a good point or adding to the discussion. I stopped coming around when Marty claimed, very wrongly, that all Reps were racist. I thought that was completely uncalled for and completely wrong, yet it seems to be some kind of tactic. I'm not racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic, transphobic or any other type of disparaging box people try to put each other in. I am acrophobic though. I have a deathly fear of heights.

Arrogance is a lest admirable character trait. From the other side’s perspective Trump is the most arrogant person I can think of. He’s also one of the biggest bullies I can think of. I remember just posting in the Suns thread where I didn’t really like Barkley, Ainge or Bell when they played on other teams. When we got them I guess I enjoyed their antics because it was for the benefit of my team. I suppose being on the right, his antics are similar and as long as he’s doing it for your team they don’t seem as bad.

I doubt there has been a more arrogant president in US history. Maybe Jackson. But that is about it.

[BKinSJC]

I considered adding this to what I wrote last night, so I guess I will now. I find it significant that a number of currently-practicing attorneys with expertise in election law either left or were removed from the Trump team in the early going. I don't think that the intention was ever to have Rudy Giuliani be anything more than the public face of the effort, as someone loyal to Mr. Trump who is well-known both among conservatives and in general, and who was trusted through the 9/11 crisis a couple of decades ago. It's my understanding that he was considered a very good trial lawyer when he was younger, but his area was never constitutional or election law (he was primarily known as a criminal prosecutor), and like most attorneys who become politicians, he has not actively practiced since he decided to make that switch. But once the actual experts were no longer on the team, Giuliani, together with whatever else remained, had to try to cobble together a strategy in an area that he wasn't proficient in, under pressure and with limited time. The results have been as we have seen them.

I continue to believe that the reason why some of the more experienced, proficient lawyers withdrew was because they could see that the cases would fail on the merits, and did not want to be associated with that failure. Pressing highly visible cases with little to no chance of success is generally a bad strategy, and pressing such cases in the volatile and divisive political environment that currently exists is even worse.

End note - by the time she filed the "Kraken" case, Sidney Powell was no longer working for the Trump team; she instead went and found disgruntled voters in Georgia and Michigan to represent directly. Despite the less-than-mediocre work done by Giuliani et al, I think that even they could see that Powell's claims were going to be a train wreck.

My understanding was that many of the lawyers, like the ones in the individual states were working against the Trump team, instead of for them.

I don't understand what you mean here. If you have agreed to represent someone as counsel, you cannot then "...work[] against" them. You have an ethical obligation to zealously represent them to the best of your ability; you can't even agree to represent, start working on their behalf, and then resign and begin working against them, as it creates a conflict of interest. If this had happened, there would have been word regarding sanctions.

Others were intimidated with threats to their firm, personally doxed and threats to their families.

I can believe that this may have happened, and if so, then it's very discouraging. I pointed out up above that the divisive nature of politics these days can lead to exactly this kind of problem. Still, it's difficult for me to believe that, if the claimed massive fraud occurred and could be proven, the Trump group with its resources couldn't have found at least a few qualified election law experts willing to step up and join. Ergo, I continue to think that it's more likely that this may have been a contributing factor, rather than a completely decisive one.

I've also heard that Giuliani and the team had their own ideas on how they wanted to run things, so some more established firms, with very good lawyers(and ones that would have made sure that they weren't filed with misspellings, procedural problems and other things that got them thrown out needlessly) were just excluded from the team and went back to their firms. It is a curious thing.

And herein probably lies the real problem. I think that one of Mr. Trump's fatal flaws seems to be that he lacks respect for the expertise of others, unless those people are completely loyal to him and will tell him what he wishes to hear. This tends to dilute their ability to do their jobs in the way they need to be done, and leads to less competent people telling more competent people how it's going to be. Why would someone who's really good at what they do put up with this?

[virtual9mm]

Hard for me to agree that Indy was being arrogant when he was just stating facts. Important to put this out there.

[In2ition]

I considered adding this to what I wrote last night, so I guess I will now. I find it significant that a number of currently-practicing attorneys with expertise in election law either left or were removed from the Trump team in the early going. I don't think that the intention was ever to have Rudy Giuliani be anything more than the public face of the effort, as someone loyal to Mr. Trump who is well-known both among conservatives and in general, and who was trusted through the 9/11 crisis a couple of decades ago. It's my understanding that he was considered a very good trial lawyer when he was younger, but his area was never constitutional or election law (he was primarily known as a criminal prosecutor), and like most attorneys who become politicians, he has not actively practiced since he decided to make that switch. But once the actual experts were no longer on the team, Giuliani, together with whatever else remained, had to try to cobble together a strategy in an area that he wasn't proficient in, under pressure and with limited time. The results have been as we have seen them.

I continue to believe that the reason why some of the more experienced, proficient lawyers withdrew was because they could see that the cases would fail on the merits, and did not want to be associated with that failure. Pressing highly visible cases with little to no chance of success is generally a bad strategy, and pressing such cases in the volatile and divisive political environment that currently exists is even worse.

End note - by the time she filed the "Kraken" case, Sidney Powell was no longer working for the Trump team; she instead went and found disgruntled voters in Georgia and Michigan to represent directly. Despite the less-than-mediocre work done by Giuliani et al, I think that even they could see that Powell's claims were going to be a train wreck.

My understanding was that many of the lawyers, like the ones in the individual states were working against the Trump team, instead of for them.

I don't understand what you mean here. If you have agreed to represent someone as counsel, you cannot then "...work[] against" them. You have an ethical obligation to zealously represent them to the best of your ability; you can't even agree to represent, start working on their behalf, and then resign and begin working against them, as it creates a conflict of interest. If this had happened, there would have been word regarding sanctions.

According to Robert Barnes, the GOP lawyers in GA that also work for the Governor and SOS would promise things, drag their feet and then act like they didn't or wouldn't help. They did this over and over, and it became apparent that they were in a way, actively working against the Trump lawyers by not doing anything. I have no idea why that happened, but I'm not a fan of Brian Kemp, his SOS Brad Rappensberger or the sleazy assistant guy in charge of the election. They paid Dominion hundreds of millions of dollars and got kickbacks from the company.

[In2ition]

It's fine. I'm not perfect. I'm sure I haven't been the nicest to people from time to time, and I admit I may have gone overboard on Indy(sorry Indy), even though I do think he's been an arrogant ass over time. It hit on my last nerve, and arrogance is the least admirable character trait imo. I don't like or appreciate bullies or bully tactics. I don't mind having disagreements with others, but it's hard to come into the political forum over the yrs, when you are ganged up on and some just come in to pile on without actually bringing in a good point or adding to the discussion. I stopped coming around when Marty claimed, very wrongly, that all Reps were racist. I thought that was completely uncalled for and completely wrong, yet it seems to be some kind of tactic. I'm not racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic, transphobic or any other type of disparaging box people try to put each other in. I am acrophobic though. I have a deathly fear of heights.

Arrogance is a lest admirable character trait. From the other side’s perspective Trump is the most arrogant person I can think of. He’s also one of the biggest bullies I can think of. I remember just posting in the Suns thread where I didn’t really like Barkley, Ainge or Bell when they played on other teams. When we got them I guess I enjoyed their antics because it was for the benefit of my team. I suppose being on the right, his antics are similar and as long as he’s doing it for your team they don’t seem as bad.

I doubt there has been a more arrogant president in US history. Maybe Jackson. But that is about it.

I think Trump has been arrogant in his life, but I don't think he's the arrogant person he once was. I can't think of a more arrogant Pres then Obama was/is though. And I continue to believe he's still pulling some of the strings in Washington.

[In2ition]

Then this happened.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/1 ... ingbuttons

https://www.axios.com/russian-hack-cybe ... a22c4.html

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/1 ... ingbuttons

[BKinSJC]

According to Robert Barnes, the GOP lawyers in GA that also work for the Governor and SOS would promise things, drag their feet and then act like they didn't or wouldn't help. They did this over and over, and it became apparent that they were in a way, actively working against the Trump lawyers by not doing anything. I have no idea why that happened, but I'm not a fan of Brian Kemp, his SOS Brad Rappensberger or the sleazy assistant guy in charge of the election. They paid Dominion hundreds of millions of dollars and got kickbacks from the company.

Again, I think you may be misunderstanding this situation. Regardless of party affiliation, any lawyers "in GA that also work for the Governor and SOS" could not be part of Trump's representation, since the State of Georgia was a named defendant in those lawsuits, creating an unresolvable conflict of interest.

If they were opposition lawyers, representing the State of Georgia in some way, then they have the same ethical responsibility to represent their client to the best of their ability; their job is to defend the integrity of the elections that took place in that state as best they can. They would have been required to produce any evidence required by the court, and in a timely manner, but they have no obligation to jump when the Trump team says so. If they were dragging their feet as much as they could get away with, then that's just gamesmanship, and that sort of thing happens all the time.

Please bear in mind as you think of this, who is what side of any legal issue. Partisanship is not and should not be what ultimately matters here. Actually, that should always be the case.

[Indy]

It's fine. I'm not perfect. I'm sure I haven't been the nicest to people from time to time, and I admit I may have gone overboard on Indy(sorry Indy), even though I do think he's been an arrogant ass over time. It hit on my last nerve, and arrogance is the least admirable character trait imo. I don't like or appreciate bullies or bully tactics. I don't mind having disagreements with others, but it's hard to come into the political forum over the yrs, when you are ganged up on and some just come in to pile on without actually bringing in a good point or adding to the discussion. I stopped coming around when Marty claimed, very wrongly, that all Reps were racist. I thought that was completely uncalled for and completely wrong, yet it seems to be some kind of tactic. I'm not racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic, transphobic or any other type of disparaging box people try to put each other in. I am acrophobic though. I have a deathly fear of heights.

Arrogance is a lest admirable character trait. From the other side’s perspective Trump is the most arrogant person I can think of. He’s also one of the biggest bullies I can think of. I remember just posting in the Suns thread where I didn’t really like Barkley, Ainge or Bell when they played on other teams. When we got them I guess I enjoyed their antics because it was for the benefit of my team. I suppose being on the right, his antics are similar and as long as he’s doing it for your team they don’t seem as bad.

I doubt there has been a more arrogant president in US history. Maybe Jackson. But that is about it.

I think Trump has been arrogant in his life, but I don't think he's the arrogant person he once was. I can't think of a more arrogant Pres then Obama was/is though. And I continue to believe he's still pulling some of the strings in Washington.

that sounds very partisan of you. Obama had many flaws as president, but arrogance wasn't one of them.

[AmareIsGod]

It's fine. I'm not perfect. I'm sure I haven't been the nicest to people from time to time, and I admit I may have gone overboard on Indy(sorry Indy), even though I do think he's been an arrogant ass over time. It hit on my last nerve, and arrogance is the least admirable character trait imo. I don't like or appreciate bullies or bully tactics. I don't mind having disagreements with others, but it's hard to come into the political forum over the yrs, when you are ganged up on and some just come in to pile on without actually bringing in a good point or adding to the discussion. I stopped coming around when Marty claimed, very wrongly, that all Reps were racist. I thought that was completely uncalled for and completely wrong, yet it seems to be some kind of tactic. I'm not racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic, transphobic or any other type of disparaging box people try to put each other in. I am acrophobic though. I have a deathly fear of heights.

Arrogance is a lest admirable character trait. From the other side’s perspective Trump is the most arrogant person I can think of. He’s also one of the biggest bullies I can think of. I remember just posting in the Suns thread where I didn’t really like Barkley, Ainge or Bell when they played on other teams. When we got them I guess I enjoyed their antics because it was for the benefit of my team. I suppose being on the right, his antics are similar and as long as he’s doing it for your team they don’t seem as bad.

I doubt there has been a more arrogant president in US history. Maybe Jackson. But that is about it.

I think Trump has been arrogant in his life, but I don't think he's the arrogant person he once was. I can't think of a more arrogant Pres then Obama was/is though. And I continue to believe he's still pulling some of the strings in Washington.

Arrogant? Obama? Because he was college educated from an ivy league university and well spoken? I'm not at all sure where you see arrogance in Obama.

[In2ition]

It's fine. I'm not perfect. I'm sure I haven't been the nicest to people from time to time, and I admit I may have gone overboard on Indy(sorry Indy), even though I do think he's been an arrogant ass over time. It hit on my last nerve, and arrogance is the least admirable character trait imo. I don't like or appreciate bullies or bully tactics. I don't mind having disagreements with others, but it's hard to come into the political forum over the yrs, when you are ganged up on and some just come in to pile on without actually bringing in a good point or adding to the discussion. I stopped coming around when Marty claimed, very wrongly, that all Reps were racist. I thought that was completely uncalled for and completely wrong, yet it seems to be some kind of tactic. I'm not racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic, transphobic or any other type of disparaging box people try to put each other in. I am acrophobic though. I have a deathly fear of heights.

Arrogance is a lest admirable character trait. From the other side’s perspective Trump is the most arrogant person I can think of. He’s also one of the biggest bullies I can think of. I remember just posting in the Suns thread where I didn’t really like Barkley, Ainge or Bell when they played on other teams. When we got them I guess I enjoyed their antics because it was for the benefit of my team. I suppose being on the right, his antics are similar and as long as he’s doing it for your team they don’t seem as bad.

I doubt there has been a more arrogant president in US history. Maybe Jackson. But that is about it.

I think Trump has been arrogant in his life, but I don't think he's the arrogant person he once was. I can't think of a more arrogant Pres then Obama was/is though. And I continue to believe he's still pulling some of the strings in Washington.

that sounds very partisan of you. Obama had many flaws as president, but arrogance wasn't one of them.

Fair enough. I won't deny I'm partisan. I still think the guy was pretty arrogant.

[In2ition]

It's fine. I'm not perfect. I'm sure I haven't been the nicest to people from time to time, and I admit I may have gone overboard on Indy(sorry Indy), even though I do think he's been an arrogant ass over time. It hit on my last nerve, and arrogance is the least admirable character trait imo. I don't like or appreciate bullies or bully tactics. I don't mind having disagreements with others, but it's hard to come into the political forum over the yrs, when you are ganged up on and some just come in to pile on without actually bringing in a good point or adding to the discussion. I stopped coming around when Marty claimed, very wrongly, that all Reps were racist. I thought that was completely uncalled for and completely wrong, yet it seems to be some kind of tactic. I'm not racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobic, transphobic or any other type of disparaging box people try to put each other in. I am acrophobic though. I have a deathly fear of heights.

Arrogance is a lest admirable character trait. From the other side’s perspective Trump is the most arrogant person I can think of. He’s also one of the biggest bullies I can think of. I remember just posting in the Suns thread where I didn’t really like Barkley, Ainge or Bell when they played on other teams. When we got them I guess I enjoyed their antics because it was for the benefit of my team. I suppose being on the right, his antics are similar and as long as he’s doing it for your team they don’t seem as bad.

I doubt there has been a more arrogant president in US history. Maybe Jackson. But that is about it.

I think Trump has been arrogant in his life, but I don't think he's the arrogant person he once was. I can't think of a more arrogant Pres then Obama was/is though. And I continue to believe he's still pulling some of the strings in Washington.

Arrogant? Obama? Because he was college educated from an ivy league university and well spoken? I'm not at all sure where you see arrogance in Obama.

No, I don't think him being well spoken or from an Ivy league college makes anyone automatically arrogant.

[Nodack]

Obama’s favorite word - We

Trump’s favorite word - Me

[ShelC]

I understand how Obama can come off as arrogant. I think his administration and those working in it were somewhat arrogant in that they thought or acted like they knew everything and knew what was best for everyone. But I think he had a vision for the country and how to move it forward in a way that was best for everyone, while the other side just fought him tooth and nail and painted everything he did as traitorous or condescending to the masses.

[Indy]

I understand how Obama can come off as arrogant. I think his administration and those working in it were somewhat arrogant in that they thought or acted like they knew everything and knew what was best for everyone. But I think he had a vision for the country and how to move it forward in a way that was best for everyone, while the other side just fought him tooth and nail and painted everything he did as traitorous or condescending to the masses.

I guess I was comparing the two. I see no way how you could call Obama arrogant when comparing him to Trump.

[Nodack]

No way you could call anyone arrogant when compared to Trump. He is king.

[Superbone]

Trump is easily the most arrogant and infantile president in US history. Easily.

[ShelC]

There's almost an intellectual arrogance vs ignorant arrogance between the two. Trump is arrogant thru his ignorance and narcissism that he's #1 in everything. But there's a false bravado and true lack of confidence there. It's why he pushes himself to the front of the stage when standing with the rest of the world's leaders. Or rips the facemask off in defiance after getting out of the hospital. Or says outright, "total authority, none of the responsibility". He needs to be seen and feel that way for validation. Some view that as strong. Some seem to want the "strongman" autocrat who says "YOU'RE AMERICAN. YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT" when it's really "I don't care about you, I just want to stay in power".

[Indy]

There's almost an intellectual arrogance vs ignorant arrogance between the two. Trump is arrogant thru his ignorance and narcissism that he's #1 in everything. But there's a false bravado and true lack of confidence there. It's why he pushes himself to the front of the stage when standing with the rest of the world's leaders. Or rips the facemask off in defiance after getting out of the hospital. Or says outright, "total authority, none of the responsibility". He needs to be seen and feel that way for validation. Some view that as strong. Some seem to want the "strongman" autocrat who says "YOU'RE AMERICAN. YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT" when it's really "I don't care about you, I just want to stay in power".

That is a good way of describing it. Trump's arrogance is rooted in knowing he is a fraud. I mean, he wears lifts and lies about his height and weight because he is scared of who he actually is.

[In2ition]

There's almost an intellectual arrogance vs ignorant arrogance between the two. Trump is arrogant thru his ignorance and narcissism that he's #1 in everything. But there's a false bravado and true lack of confidence there. It's why he pushes himself to the front of the stage when standing with the rest of the world's leaders. Or rips the facemask off in defiance after getting out of the hospital. Or says outright, "total authority, none of the responsibility". He needs to be seen and feel that way for validation. Some view that as strong. Some seem to want the "strongman" autocrat who says "YOU'RE AMERICAN. YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT" when it's really "I don't care about you, I just want to stay in power".

That is a good way of describing it. Trump's arrogance is rooted in knowing he is a fraud. I mean, he wears lifts and lies about his height and weight because he is scared of who he actually is.

This is confirmed?

[Nodack]

“I have no problem calling Donald a narcissist—he meets all nine criteria as outlined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5)—but the label gets us only so far.”

“A case could be made that he also meets the criteria for antisocial personality disorder, which in its most severe form is generally considered sociopathy but can also refer to chronic criminality, arrogance, and disregard for the rights of others.”

“Donald may also meet some of the criteria for dependent personality disorder, the hallmarks of which include an inability to make decisions or take responsibility, discomfort with being alone, and going to excessive lengths to obtain support from others.”

“The fact is, Donald’s pathologies are so complex and his behaviors so often inexplicable that coming up with an accurate and comprehensive diagnosis would require a full battery of psychological and neuropsychological tests that he’ll never sit for. At this point, we can’t evaluate his day-to-day functioning because he is, in the West Wing, essentially institutionalized. Donald has been institutionalized for most of his adult life, so there is no way to know how he would thrive, or even survive, on his own in the real world.”

Excerpt From
Too Much and Never Enough
Mary L. Trump
PhD Psychology