Suns 2022 Off-Season Thread

[Uncle_Gene]

Dyson Daniels seems promising, but I'd hang on to Cam Johnson. I would trade Cam Payne, Torrey Craig, or Iffe Lundberg for him.

What do you guys think ?

[specialsauce]

Not really sure why Phoenix would do that, they’d have to value Cam J pretty low

FTFY

[TOO]

Dyson Daniels seems promising, but I'd hang on to Cam Johnson. I would trade Cam Payne, Torrey Craig, or Iffe Lundberg for him.

What do you guys think ?

We'd all make that trade, but that group isn't netting a lotto pick.

[Split T]

Not really sure why Phoenix would do that, they’d have to value Cam J pretty low

FTFY

I think it can be both things. Gordon and 2 1sts for Cam J? None of that other stuff in the trade was really worth anything. I just don’t see Cam J being a big enough piece for them at this point. Their building blocks are 2 1st year players and a yet to be drafted 3rd overall pick. Giving up more opportunities to add young assets for a 26 year old role player who needs to get paid just doesn’t make sense to me.

[AmareIsGod]

Dyson Daniels seems promising, but I'd hang on to Cam Johnson. I would trade Cam Payne, Torrey Craig, or Iffe Lundberg for him.

What do you guys think ?

We'd all make that trade, but that group isn't netting a lotto pick.

Exactly. People aren't lining up to eat a shit sandwich in return for a filet mignon.

[Shabazz]

What do you all think about John Wall as a backup when he gets bought out? Assuming we move Payne.

I feel like Wall still fancies himself a starter, but he could be a good fit here in a limited role.

[Superbone]

What do you all think about John Wall as a backup when he gets bought out? Assuming we move Payne.

I feel like Wall still fancies himself a starter, but he could be a good fit here in a limited role.

For cheap? Maybe. I wonder what his attitude is these days?

[Shabazz]

What do you all think about John Wall as a backup when he gets bought out? Assuming we move Payne.

I feel like Wall still fancies himself a starter, but he could be a good fit here in a limited role.

For cheap? Maybe. I wonder what his attitude is these days?

I’m only talking for the minimum.

[Split T]

He’s made like 200 million plus over the last 5 years and would be getting like 40 million+ from Houston even in a buyout situation…I don’t think he’s gonna be super concerned about what he signs for.

[Superbone]

He’s made like 200 million plus over the last 5 years and would be getting like 40 million+ from Houston even in a buyout situation…I don’t think he’s gonna be super concerned about what he signs for.

I hope he feels like he still has something to prove on the court.

[Uncle_Gene]

Dyson Daniels seems promising, but I'd hang on to Cam Johnson. I would trade Cam Payne, Torrey Craig, or Iffe Lundberg for him.

What do you guys think ?

We'd all make that trade, but that group isn't netting a lotto pick.

Exactly. People aren't lining up to eat a shit sandwich in return for a filet mignon.

LOL. Who would you trade for him ?

[Split T]

Not really sure why we’d be interested. I guess he has some shot creation potential..hasn’t really put it together yet though

[Indy]

I think it is just a smokescreen the Knicks put out there to see what he is worth.

[AmareIsGod]

Dyson Daniels seems promising, but I'd hang on to Cam Johnson. I would trade Cam Payne, Torrey Craig, or Iffe Lundberg for him.

What do you guys think ?

We'd all make that trade, but that group isn't netting a lotto pick.

Exactly. People aren't lining up to eat a shit sandwich in return for a filet mignon.

LOL. Who would you trade for him ?

I mean, it's hard to say. I just know as another team, I'm not giving up a top 10 pick for 13th string end of bench fodder.

[Drewsprocket]

I think I am on board with the Dangelo, he seems very gettable and possibly cheap. T’Wolves seem like they’re just gonna dump him for expiring and perhaps something fairly light. I think 1. He will be good for locker room (he’s had time to mature and been humbled by now, still friends with Book) 2. Can torch teams as a sixth man and fill in guy for CP3.
Dude takes 8-9 Threes per game. Playing for us his % will likely go way up. He’s played for enough teams by now to know he’s not a superstar. As a sun he will still get up to 30 mpg and be a part time starter for CP3 playing as a combo.

[BigLewy]

Behind a paywall, so figured I would share. Article is really long, so I included the Suns-related parts.
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/ ... gnoring-it

How the Phoenix Suns plan to nail the NBA draft ... by mostly ignoring it


THIS SPRING'S FINALS offer an object lesson in the power of the annual draft. The Boston Celtics' starting five featured four first-round picks between 2014 and 2018. The Golden State Warriors transformed from a backwater to glam franchise by drafting Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson and Draymond Green. Younger draftees Jordan Poole and Kevon Looney also proved indispensable in the Warriors' title run.

In contrast, the failure of the Sacramento Kings and Orlando Magic to find franchise players despite drafting repeatedly near the top of the lottery have consigned them to chronic mediocrity.

One team that's had mixed results in recent years -- like most NBA teams -- is the Phoenix Suns. Unlike most NBA teams, the Suns have determined that the best way to value the NBA draft might be to not value it at all.

In a league where teams spend millions of dollars and employ an ever-growing number of scouts in a year-round pursuit to nail the June draft, the Suns, under the current leadership of general manager James Jones, are taking the inverse approach.

Phoenix's tack is as unconventional as it is anti-establishment: Not only are the Suns bucking a pronounced league trend by divesting from the Draft Industrial Complex, they're also espousing a view in the information age that less of it is better.

The Suns don't have a formal reporting system for Gomez or Mastin to feed after each game they see, or conversation they have with a college coach. Jones prefers that his scouts stay as close to the team in Phoenix as possible. Consequently, Gomez -- the Suns' lead international scout -- will spend far more time over the course of the basketball season in Phoenix than his counterparts in Europe will at their mother ships, if they return at all. Whereas most NBA teams do exhaustive work to draw up their "draft board" ranking dozens of prospects, the Suns have sworn off the practice the past three years.

"Our draft board would be a mockery to other teams," says Zach Amundson, the Suns' senior analyst of personnel and team evaluation. "By the time we were done, we had only five to seven guys on our draft board."

The Suns look with a jaundiced eye on one-and-done prospects. Jones believes that there's precious little to glean from watching an 18-year-old player in his sixth career game during a Thanksgiving tournament in person. He feels that, most days during the regular season, a Suns scout is probably better off observing Monty Williams run practice than watching a college prospect with "raw talent" play against NCAA competition. Jones regards the draft as much as a promotional pageant for the league as a pool of ready-made NBA players who can affect winning right away.

"The draft is one of many channels where we can acquire talent," Jones says. "It's the one we glorify. It's the one that comes with the excitement. And it comes with an advantage -- the ability to get productive players on low salaries, and under contractual control for multiple years. But it's just one vehicle for acquisition. You can only devote so many resources to it, and there's a different value proposition here."

That different value proposition -- less time, expense, brainpower and grunt work -- might pay dividends by simplifying the cumbersome task of appraising hundreds of amateur and international basketball players. But it could also prove to be a quixotic, reductive scheme that leaves the Suns woefully behind the organizations who scour the ends of the earth to mine for draft talent.

AMUNDSON ESTIMATES HE cranked out 200 to 300 reports on NBA prospects after arriving for his first full-time season in Phoenix in 2019. For a 24-year-old eager to make an impression, it made sense to mimic the veterans in the business who pounded away on their laptops at college arenas. In the spring of 2020, Jones approached Amundson and informed him he wouldn't be reading his young scout's exhaustive reports.

Jones told Amundson that he would welcome macro-level conversations about the kinds of prospects the Suns should be monitoring, or even a holistic discussion about a specific college player's career. When Amundson determined a draft-eligible player cleared a threshold to warrant the most serious consideration of the organization, he would then assemble a thorough evaluation making his case.

The presentation, Jones told him, would include an extensive video edit, an evaluation that includes data analysis and an intelligence report. Jones would sit at the head of the conference table during the presentation and make the case against the player, thereby pressing Amundson -- or whichever member of the front office is advocating for the player -- to defend his position. Others in the room would ask questions too.

Jones played four seasons at the University of Miami before the Indiana Pacers selected him with the No. 49 pick of the 2003 draft. During his 14 seasons with the Pacers, Phoenix, Miami and Cleveland, Jones won three NBA championships, all as a teammate of LeBron James, who referred to him as "my favorite player of all time." Jones is one of 31 players in league history to make more than 700 3-pointers at a rate of better than 40%, a skill he got to showcase as a member of the Suns' revolutionary "Seven Seconds or Less" teams.

In many ways, Jones the 22-year-old player is the personification of the prospect Jones the 41-year-old GM values most -- an older player with a refined skill and a mature temperament. In Phoenix, the word "potential" is strictly verboten.

"We're not allowed to talk about 'potential,'" says Ryan Resch, the Suns' vice president of basketball strategy and evaluation. "We say 'capacity' instead of 'potential,' because capacity forces you to recognize what the player can actually do today and what he is capable of doing tomorrow."

Jones, who never played on an NBA team with a losing record, harbors an ideological opposition to the notion of a rebuild, which he finds corrosive to an organization and a disservice to fans.

"You're either trying to win, or you're not trying to win," Jones says. "If you're not trying to win, you can say what you want, but you're trying to lose. You can say, 'Well, let's go slow and win later,' but there are too many things between now and later. I'm trying to win now and win later. Players know every day in the league brings them one day closer to the end of their careers, and I can't waste their days."

"The draft is one of many channels where we can acquire talent. It's the one we glorify. It's the one that comes with the excitement. And it comes with an advantage -- the ability to get productive players on low salaries, and under contractual control for multiple years. But it's just one vehicle for acquisition."
Suns GM James Jones

Jones and his staff insist they're interested in "players, not prospects." The Suns say they apply the same criteria used to determine the value of a prospective free agent to the draft. If the player can contribute immediately, and if his skill set can fill an explicit role in Williams' system for the upcoming season, he's worth considering. If neither of those measures can be met, he's not for Phoenix.

Over the past decade, NBA front offices have undergone a movement of professionalization. The Oklahoma City Thunder epitomize this pivot away from old-world scouting and toward technocracy. The Thunder are renowned for their massive database that includes terabytes of information on virtually every basketball prospect in the past two decades that has a remote chance of sniffing an NBA career. In recent seasons, the Thunder have stripped down their team to the studs and are patiently constructing the roster piece by piece with little attention on their win-loss record, all the while stockpiling draft assets. In the parlance of the NBA, this is a tank job, and even those who find the practice distasteful concede it's a sensible strategy for a team in one of the league's smallest, least glamorous markets.

"I respect what OKC does," Jones says when asked if he has an appreciation for the Oklahoma City Thunder's more deliberate strategy. "That's what they've chosen to be, I guess. Everything's a choice. I don't judge. I respect it. It's just not for me."
If the player can contribute immediately, and his skill set fills an explicit role in Williams' system, he's worth considering for the Suns. Cameron Johnson, taken No. 11 in 2019 to much criticism, could do both. Kate Frese/NBAE via Getty Images

"PICKS ARE JUST players," Jones says.

Officially, the Suns traded away their 2021 first-round pick (No. 29) last July when they packaged it with Jevon Carter for Landry Shamet. In their judgment, they essentially acquired a 24-year-old sharpshooter in Shamet and his Bird rights. Internally, they regard 27-year-old Danish guard Gabriel "Iffe" Lundberg, whom they signed in March, as this year's draft pick, tantamount to what they could have obtained with the 30th selection, which went to Oklahoma City in the Chris Paul trade.

Jones' time in Miami playing alongside James and in an organization with Pat Riley's handprint on it has informed much of his thinking about building a sustainable roster long on veterans and short on projects. Riley told the media in 2018 in his postseason news conference, "To be really honest with you, I'm not a draft pick guy," and Jones has, in large part, adopted Riley's limited appetite for both the draft and rookies.

Jones' first draft as the Suns' lead basketball executive was 2019, when the Suns held the No. 6 pick and were coming off their worst season since their inaugural expansion year in 1968-69. The Suns' sparse draft board included Cameron Johnson, a 6-foot-9 forward out of North Carolina with range. A five-year college player, Johnson was projected by most prognosticators to go late in the first round.

"'Don't take an older guy, because there's less upside or potential,'" Jones says. "That's the narrative. 'He doesn't have as much potential to grow as everyone else. There's not enough raw physical talent and skill. Is he that much better than the freshman who is playing on the team who flashes star potential?'"

When the Suns examined players of comparable size and positionality in the field, they determined Johnson had a greater capacity to contribute right away than Sekou Doumbouya or Cam Reddish did. They preferred his temperament as a more mature rookie on a team that needed to grow up quickly. Recognizing they likely valued Johnson appreciably more than any other team, they traded the No. 6 pick to Minnesota in exchange for No. 11 and forward Dario Saric.

The pick was roundly panned, with some detractors noting that even at No. 11, the Suns still wildly overcommitted to a 23-year-old who was the oldest lottery pick in a decade.

Johnson, who averaged 12.5 points per game on a true shooting percentage of 62.5 in 26.2 minutes per game this past season, embodies the Suns' heterodox posture on the draft. The Suns examined the player as a de facto free agent rather than a potential NBA player. They evaluated his skill set solely in the context of what it could provide Williams' preferred style on both sides of the ball. They thought about how Johnson's presence on the floor would influence the three players of greatest priority in their youth movement -- Devin Booker, DeAndre Ayton and Mikal Bridges.

With a career 3-point shooting percentage of 41.4 in 34 playoff games with Phoenix, Johnson has solidified himself as part of the Suns' prime core moving forward. For Phoenix, it further emboldened them to forgo the tedious draft boards, and zero in on the handful of players who fit their narrow criteria.

Says Resch: "We were prepared to take him sixth if we had to."

THE SUNS' BASKETBALL operations team gathers for a strategy meeting in the second week of April just before the playoffs, for which they secured the No. 1 seed weeks ago. The staff is noticeably small. Everyone fits more than comfortably in the main conference room that overlooks the practice courts of the Suns' new training facility.

When he's assessing the trade-offs of devoting less attention or a smaller budget toward draft scouting and preparation, Jones makes repeated mention of resource theory. The implication is that the Suns have a finite amount of resources and, in his words, "can't do everything."

"The constraints are not financial," he says. "We will continue to intentionally build a group that can excel at identifying the modern player as the NBA continues to evolve."

The Suns have a total 14 people employed in basketball operations, including Jones. For comparison, the LA Clippers have 14 people alone in their scouting department. Jones says he maintains a smaller staff by design.

"How big can your staff be before it becomes too much for the system to bear?" he says. "When you have 25 or 30 front-office people and scouts, now you have to tell people they can't be in our strategy meeting. I don't want certain people sitting and certain people standing. I don't want anyone here to feel like they're on the fringe, or that their voice isn't heard."

The strategy meeting in Phoenix lasts less than two hours, with everyone having a chance to speak and present.

"The people who have to connect those dots must be proximal to the actual team to know what truly is an area of need for us," Jones says. "They need to be constantly engaged with our coaching staff. A regional scout scouting games on the East Coast who is never watching our team practice has no context. This is an intimate business, and I find it really hard for people to truly understand what matters and what's of significance if they're not close to it."

The year following the selection of Johnson, the Suns drafted big man Jalen Smith with the No. 10 pick. Smith played infrequently and ineffectively, and was the first top-10 pick to have his third-year option declined. He was traded last February to Indiana.

"Jalen wasn't better than [Suns backup center] JaVale [McGee] on a competitive team trying to win a championship," Jones says. "You could say, 'If we give him opportunities he can be productive,' but what's the trade-off?"

Jones readily admits that if another unformed Antetokounmpo is toiling in obscurity in southeastern Europe, the Suns wouldn't give him much of a look. He concedes that rarely does a franchise superstar enter the draft as a plug-and-play talent -- think Dwyane Wade or Stephen Curry -- ready to contribute immediately. He appreciates that it's easier for a team in the Win-Now stage of its life cycle to roll its eyes at the faith other franchises place in the draft. But in Jones' worldview, a franchise should exist in a perpetual state of Win-Now with a combination of ready-made players, be they drafted or undrafted, and the right veterans who can support them. In short, he sees a Miami in the desert.

He even confesses that, had he been at the helm in 2015, he probably would have passed on Booker.

"It all depends on what your goal is," Jones says. "Devin is great, but there are 50 skeletons tied to that swing for the star. It wasn't until winning was imported -- Chris, Jae Crowder, drafting a three-year guy who could help right away like Mikal -- that it translated to success. And if you don't import winning around him, there are even more skeletons. So if you want to find the guy with the highest potential to be the future star, then it makes sense to draft him -- if you're willing to navigate the land mines."

[Split T]

Not gonna lie, that article doesn’t make me feel great about Jones long term. Seems like he works in our current win now state, but not someone I want at the helm for a rebuild.

[Split T]

Also I think it’s safe to say we aren’t trying to get into the top of this draft or trying to get young prospects in an Ayton S&T

[Indy]

Not gonna lie, that article doesn’t make me feel great about Jones long term. Seems like he works in our current win now state, but not someone I want at the helm for a rebuild.

I like a GM that says "If you aren't trying to win now, you are trying to lose." But you still need to plan to win tomorrow. If the Warriors said "I don't see Poole being able to play an explicit role on our team this season" before that draft, and decided not to take him, they probably wouldn't have won another championship this season.

[Indy]

Also I think it’s safe to say we aren’t trying to get into the top of this draft or trying to get young prospects in an Ayton S&T

Or it is all a smokescreen?