All Things Ayton

[INFORMER]

Okay. So Suns fans, should Ayton be traded and if so for who ?

Unless you can get a true alpha -- hell no. He's not perfect but who are you going to get that's better?

I think that's the wrong way to look at it. It isn't about a one for one player swap. It's about building a better team. It doesn't make sense to have a role player center making max money. I would move Ayton for draft compensation, salary cap relief, and and a young player or two that I could build with.

[INFORMER]

I'd love to get Giddey from OKC.

I would too, but OKC isn't moving him, especially not for Ayton.

[JeremyG]

You aren't watching closely if you haven't noticed him continue to attempt 5-foot bank shots over guys 8" shorter than him. But sure, he's playing with physicality.

Now I know you're not watching. I don't know if I've ever seen him attempt a bank shot in his career.

[JeremyG]

Guys, physicality doesn't necessarily mean touching other players, or even exerting effort. He's dribbling the ball with great downward velocity and throwing passes with tremendous force.

So I'm the only person on this planet who has seen it...besides everyone in the Suns organization who contributed to that episode?

[Flagrant Fowl]

You aren't watching closely if you haven't noticed him continue to attempt 5-foot bank shots over guys 8" shorter than him. But sure, he's playing with physicality.

Now I know you're not watching. I don't know if I'ver ever seen him attempt a bank shot in his career.

He literally just did it against the Cavs two nights ago. I think it was in the first half. All he had to do was dribble once and dunk it, but he attempted some dumb bank shot over a wing/guard and missed badly.

[JeremyG]

You aren't watching closely if you haven't noticed him continue to attempt 5-foot bank shots over guys 8" shorter than him. But sure, he's playing with physicality.

Now I know you're not watching. I don't know if I'ver ever seen him attempt a bank shot in his career.

He literally just did it against the Cavs two nights ago. I think it was in the first half. All he had to do was dribble once and dunk it, but he attempted some dumb bank shot over a wing/guard and missed badly.

The closest thing I could find was this, where he rushed a putback, but it wasn't a bank attempt: https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=& ... ck%20Layup

[Flagrant Fowl]

That looks like the one. Sorry, he didn't try to bank the shot.

Why was he intimidated by Kevin Love?

[Uncle_Gene]

Okay. So Suns fans, should Ayton be traded and if so for who ?

Giannis would be nice.

Wow !

[virtual9mm]

Okay. So Suns fans, should Ayton be traded and if so for who ?

Unless you can get a true alpha -- hell no. He's not perfect but who are you going to get that's better?

I think that's the wrong way to look at it. It isn't about a one for one player swap. It's about building a better team. It doesn't make sense to have a role player center making max money. I would move Ayton for draft compensation, salary cap relief, and and a young player or two that I could build with.

Let me rephrase. Ayton is the only real opportunity for internal improvement right now, at least in terms of producing a true second star. Whatever you get in compensation will have to get you at least as much star potential. If you look at the Colangelo years, each trade preserved or improved upon player value up through the Hot Rod trade, at which point things started falling apart. It took a minor miracle with the Nash trade to put the franchise back on track, with Nash signing for a cheap contract and dramatically outplaying it.

Do you really want to get back to the Marbury years, or perhaps even worse, the McDonough years? If not -- preserve value. Don't get rid of value just for the sake of clearing cap space. It's an early 2010s type of play that hasn't worked for several years now.

I could get on board for trading Ayton for cap relief + a young player + draft compensation if this turned out to be a Nance for KJ + Majerle type of trade. The young talent would have to be very promising and the draft compensation enticing. But...would Booker be ok with this approach?

[INFORMER]

I could get on board for trading Ayton for cap relief + a young player + draft compensation if this turned out to be a Nance for KJ + Majerle type of trade. The young talent would have to be very promising and the draft compensation enticing. But...would Booker be ok with this approach?

I think Book only cares about the final result. Put a winning team around him and he is good to go. I think the one exception maybe Chris Paul. I think handling Paul the wrong way may sour Book. As it stands now, even when everyone is healthy, it still looks like we are fielding a team of Book with a bunch of role players.

I would love to trade Ayton for a star, but it just isn't happening, not without attaching multiple picks or taking on a star that brings his on set of problems.

You could try to get DeRozan for him, but then you're getting into another limited window situation given his age. Siakim has his fans here, but Ujiri is going to ask for multiple picks because he is going to understand the big value difference in Siakim's creation/initiation ability and Ayton's lack thereof. I think Ujiri targets KAT.

I love Zach Lavine, but with his knee issues, huge contract, and defensive shakiness, I think his pairing with Book would be more NBA2K or Fantasy Basketball worthy than it would be for winning or even competing for championships.

[Mori Chu]

Okay, so, here's an exercise. According to the following web page, DeAndre Ayton is tied for the 34th highest-paid player in the NBA:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings/

Here are the players ranked ahead of him or equal to him:

Stephen Curry
Russell Westbrook
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Bradley Beal
Paul George
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Damian Lillard
Kawhi Leonard
Klay Thompson
Rudy Gobert
Anthony Davis
Khris Middleton
Jimmy Butler
Tobias Harris
Zach LaVine
Luka Doncic
Trae Young
Kyrie Irving
Ben Simmons
Pascal Siakam
Karl-Anthony Towns
Kristaps Porzingis
Devin Booker
Jrue Holiday
Andrew Wiggins
Joel Embiid
C.J. McCollum
Nikola Jokic
James Harden
Brandon Ingram
Jamal Murray
D'Angelo Russell
Donovan Mitchell
Michael Porter Jr.
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander

Your challenge is, how many guys are there on the list who are *worse* than Ayton at max money? How many guys on this list is Ayton better than? You can detach this from specific thinking about the Suns' needs if you like, more of an absolute value, how good is this guy's contract relative to his production, kind of thing.

My own thinking: Ayton is clearly better than these ones:

Russell Westbrook
Tobias Harris
Ben Simmons
Kristaps Porzingis
D'Angelo Russell

And, given injuries or age or motor or other factors, you could argue that you'd also rather have Ayton at max money than present-day:

Klay Thompson
James Harden
Michael Porter Jr.
Rudy Gobert
Zach LaVine (?)
Kyrie Irving (?)
Karl-Anthony Towns

But some folks would probably take KAT over Ayton. Anyway, imo this list isn't very flattering to DA. Almost every other player on here is either clearly better than him, other than a few who are big busts or contract mistakes. What do you all think?

[Split T]

I think there’s 6 guys Ayton is better than:

Michael Porter Jr.
D’Angelo Russell
Ben Simmons
Klay Thompson
Tobias Harris
Russell Westbrook

The guys who are about the same:

Andrew Wiggins
Jamal Murray(healthy version is better)
Kristaps Porzingis
CJ McCollum

Guys I’d stay away from but are better than Ayton:

Kyrie Irving
Zach LaVine
Rudy Gobert

[Split T]

Timeline did a pod with Ayton trades, thoughts? I’ll list the ones they brought up. Not all were their ideas.

Ayton for Vucevic and Coby White

Ayton for Hayward/Plumlee/Washington and picks
Ayton for Hayward/McDaniels/Williams

Ayton for Nurkic/Grant
Ayton for Simons/GPII

Ayton for Capela/Collins
Ayton for Murray/Capela

Ayton/Picks for Siakam(They had a few other variations, including one where FVV is included)
Ayton/Picks for OG/Thad

Ayton for Poeltl/Keldon
Ayton for Poeltl/Sochan/McDermott or Richardson

Ayton for Olynyk/Vanderbilt/Clarkson

Ayton for Randle/Reddish

Didn’t have a specific trade, but they also mentioned Ayton to Detroit for Bojan and a couple young guys/salary. Bojan/Killian/Duren was the closest they got to an actual trade.

Finished it with Ayton for Jordan Poole(in the offseason)

[Drewsprocket]

Keldon and Poeltl would be interesting. You get more scoring and a solid Center. We’d probably need to flip Crowder for a 3rd guard/combo guard.

[Split T]

I don’t know if SA would move Keldon, but ya I’d do that deal

[Superbone]

I think there’s 6 guys Ayton is better than:

Michael Porter Jr.
D’Angelo Russell
Ben Simmons
Klay Thompson
Tobias Harris
Russell Westbrook

The guys who are about the same:

Andrew Wiggins
Jamal Murray(healthy version is better)
Kristaps Porzingis
CJ McCollum

Guys I’d stay away from but are better than Ayton:

Kyrie Irving
Zach LaVine
Rudy Gobert

Kay Thompson? Really?

[Split T]

I think there’s 6 guys Ayton is better than:

Michael Porter Jr.
D’Angelo Russell
Ben Simmons
Klay Thompson
Tobias Harris
Russell Westbrook

The guys who are about the same:

Andrew Wiggins
Jamal Murray(healthy version is better)
Kristaps Porzingis
CJ McCollum

Guys I’d stay away from but are better than Ayton:

Kyrie Irving
Zach LaVine
Rudy Gobert

Kay Thompson? Really?

Yes, I don’t think Klay is very good. He’s an inefficient volume shooter who doesn’t offer much else. When he’s on he’s dangerous, but when he’s off he’s useless. He also makes significantly more than DA and is old

[Shabazz]

Okay, so, here's an exercise. According to the following web page, DeAndre Ayton is tied for the 34th highest-paid player in the NBA:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings/

Here are the players ranked ahead of him or equal to him:

Stephen Curry
Russell Westbrook
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Bradley Beal
Paul George
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Damian Lillard
Kawhi Leonard
Klay Thompson
Rudy Gobert
Anthony Davis
Khris Middleton
Jimmy Butler
Tobias Harris
Zach LaVine
Luka Doncic
Trae Young
Kyrie Irving
Ben Simmons
Pascal Siakam
Karl-Anthony Towns
Kristaps Porzingis
Devin Booker
Jrue Holiday
Andrew Wiggins
Joel Embiid
C.J. McCollum
Nikola Jokic
James Harden
Brandon Ingram
Jamal Murray
D'Angelo Russell
Donovan Mitchell
Michael Porter Jr.
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander

Your challenge is, how many guys are there on the list who are *worse* than Ayton at max money? How many guys on this list is Ayton better than? You can detach this from specific thinking about the Suns' needs if you like, more of an absolute value, how good is this guy's contract relative to his production, kind of thing.

My own thinking: Ayton is clearly better than these ones:

Russell Westbrook
Tobias Harris
Ben Simmons
Kristaps Porzingis
D'Angelo Russell

And, given injuries or age or motor or other factors, you could argue that you'd also rather have Ayton at max money than present-day:

Klay Thompson
James Harden
Michael Porter Jr.
Rudy Gobert
Zach LaVine (?)
Kyrie Irving (?)
Karl-Anthony Towns

But some folks would probably take KAT over Ayton. Anyway, imo this list isn't very flattering to DA. Almost every other player on here is either clearly better than him, other than a few who are big busts or contract mistakes. What do you all think?

I think some context is helpful about when these players signed their max deals. One big frustrayton with Ayton is that he signed his deal and immediately regressed when he should be on an upward trajectory. Some of the players on that list have had major injuries, which is why their contracts are no longer justified. Ayton's worst injury is hurt feelings.

[JeremyG]

Anyway, imo this list isn't very flattering to DA. Almost every other player on here is either clearly better than him, other than a few who are big busts or contract mistakes. What do you all think?

Of course most will be better than him. Every player who makes more money should be better! What kind of argument is this? Why not look at the ones below him? Or the ones within 5M on either side, or something?

[Split T]

The 15 guys directly below him in salary:

D’Aaron Fox
Bam Adebayo
Donovan Mitchell
Jayson Tatum
Gordon Hayward
JJJ
Kevin Love
Chris Paul
Jaylen Brown
Kyle Lowry
Jalen Brunson
DeMar Derozan
Al Horford
Draymond Green
Julius Randle

I’d say he’s better than Lowry, Hayward, and Love. I’d put Paul, Green, and Horford in the same tier. Everyone else is better.