Offseason Review : Is Jeff Hornacek a Bad Influence / Coach?

[Robot]

Hey All -

I wanted to open up some offseason per person analysis and invite those of you who are good at analytics and information [ ie. Cap ] to take a crack at this case.

I think Hornacek is a mediocre at best / franchise killing at worst coach . Let me explain my point of view and perhaps the more BBALL minded individuals here can substantiate or trash my perspective .

In my opinion part of the problem with the post surprise season has been Jeff Hornacek, for the following reasons :

1.) He shows no imagination offensively . He runs the team like a C level high-school coach and appears to have the imagination of a person who has had the entire Right side of their brain removed. If you handed him a piece of paper and asked him to draw a stick figure he would likely just smirk at the paper.

This is evident whenever an individual player is not producing and a play needs to be called to either create offense , break a rhythm or psychologically change the flow of the game . His out of time out and end of clock plays are THE WORST I HAVE EVER SEEN , EVER , the worst absolutely trash.

2.) Has no system : While he lacks creative offense, he also has no clear and consistent system to rely on. From my point of view he has absolutely NO VISION for offense outside of 'the players should play well' . This is not the mark of a good coach especially with young talent that needs to be developed and with attitudes that need to be checked and charmed

3.) Has a horrible demeanor and terrible players coach Again, I think his philosophy is 'players should play hard, be good an game win we do' . He has no finesse , shows no flexibility or intelligence when it comes to dealing with players . I never get the sense that any player respects him as a coach or person. Generally when coaches are not 'players coaches' they are hard-ass types with specific disciplines that they want the team to follow. Hornacek shows ineptitude in both areas , which makes him a bad locker room presence.

As much as we talk about players bringing down the moral of the team - I think we cannot deny that a coach can do this as well. IMO a big chunk of our issues have come from the bad relationship between front office - coach - players. The coach should be working in favor of his players as much as the FO and be a buffer and voice for them. I absolutely believe that if say, Alvin Gentry was our coach , the entire situation as it relates to Goran and Markeif would have gone down differently.

For this reason, I feel the coach is having a net bad and damaging effect on our franchise . He is the face of tepid mediocrity held by a thin string of nostalgia and player loyalty. We wanted to like him because his history and tenacity as a player, but he is boring af and IMO has a VERY limited and/or undeveloped skill set as a coach.

Once he gets fired here [ mid or next season ] he will likely get another shot or end up as an assistant where his limited skills would make more sense

Okay thats it.

- R

[Indy]

1.) He shows no imagination offensively . He runs the team like a C level high-school coach and appears to have the imagination of a person who has had the entire Right side of their brain removed. If you handed him a piece of paper and asked him to draw a stick figure he would likely just smirk at the paper.

This is evident whenever an individual player is not producing and a play needs to be called to either create offense , break a rhythm or psychologically change the flow of the game . His out of time out and end of clock plays are THE WORST I HAVE EVER SEEN , EVER , the worst absolutely trash.

I think it is important to keep in mind that it has been reported Bledsoe can't keep up with any type of complex offensive scheme, and regularly runs different plays. I believe the last article I read about this said that the coaching staff had to dumb-down most of their plays so he could try and run them. I am not saying this negates what you are saying, but I can't imagine being successful as a coach when your floor general doesn't understand the battle strategy.

[virtual9mm]

I've read some stuff that I'm too lazy to dig up -- supposedly the Morris Twins had their "family" in the locker room, which included Archie and some others, but left Dragic and Hornacek looking in from the outside. If the Morris "family" was able to produce wins, that's great, assuming that you're ok losing Dragic and Hornacek. If all that it produced was technical fouls and felony indictments...well...you know what to do.

[Robot]

1.)

I think it is important to keep in mind that it has been reported Bledsoe can't keep up with any type of complex offensive scheme, and regularly runs different plays. I believe the last article I read about this said that the coaching staff had to dumb-down most of their plays so he could try and run them. I am not saying this negates what you are saying, but I can't imagine being successful as a coach when your floor general doesn't understand the battle strategy.

In a way this further proves my message . If bled is " not smart " yet Suns are fully COMMITED to him -- any smart creative or even logical pragmatic person would develop a system around said player and not expect Bledsoe to be john Stockton .

Further - it makes less sense , if this is true, that Dragic was used off ball and not as the main point guard start of last year .

Anyone who works with assets knows , you adapt to what you have. If you have $5 you don't try to eat a five star meal, but you make a killer double sized burrito at chipotle. Hornacek lacks the ability to adapt and enjoy what he has, he tries to fit square pegs into round holes , dude is bore fest.

Also the fact that this info about Bledsoe being too stupid to understand this masterminds offense leaked makes me dislike the dude more. Another episode of throwing your players
under the bus . Players who are clearly here for the long hall. Thus my franchise killer tag for JH

-R

Still , happy to be disproven

[Ring_Wanted]

First, let me say that last season was a clusterfuck from top to bottom and the coach has to take his share of the blame, although I believe players and FO dealt him a terrible hand.

I often see people complaining about these things:

1.-Too much iso-hero ball.
2.-No authority.
3.-Rookies don't play.
4.-The 2PG backcourt.

1.- Regarding the gameplay, it is what it is. You can't reasonably demand pretty play and ball movement when almost all your personnel is made for hero/1on1 game.

To that point, nobody scored more, and more efficiently, than the Suns from non assisted actions. But that's neither beautiful (without an awe inspiring superstar at least) nor what Suns fans are used to see.

Phoenix also pushed the pace a lot, #3 overall after only GSW and Houston, which in theory plays into one of our strengths as a small, guard heavy team.

That was the 'system', the identity of the Suns in 14-15. Running, iso ball and 2PGs, and according the the kind of players on the roster, I can't say there was a lot more to be created.

On the other hand, we were a poor 3pt team, terrible on the glass, crazy turnover prone and far from strong enough defensively to make up for those shortcomings.

The TOs are particularly worrisome. The mix of players put together obviously matters, maybe more than anything, but the coach does have an impact too. Bledsoe, Green, IT3, Tucker are all prone to avoidable mistakes and it's not like they are teenagers learning the game. Dribbling in traffic or naive passes are not on the coach, but beyond a certain point you need to do something about it.

One factor that is tremendously overlooked is that the franchise purposedly went away from the deadly pick and pop Dragic and Frye had built. Mock Frye all you want, but that set was a terrific weapon to have as a team and an ideal way to put things in motion offensively. There must be a reason as to why the whole league is appartently trying to find stretch forwards and why players like Ibaka, Bosh, Millsap, etc are developing 3 a point shot. That's on McD, though.



2.- I totally agree. He was not able to actually impose the authority a head coach is supposed to have.

You just can't have people barking at you without instant consequence, and the plethora of techs was beyond ridiculous. 'From now on whoever gets a tech for complaining to the refs goes out'. This is worse than HS.



3.- Rookies don't play, true, but that's what happens when you want to win now and have veteran pieces at their position although I guess things look somewhat better on this front. Len if healthy is going to play, TJ has a place now with Marcus gone and so does at least one of Booker-Archie. Sonny Weems gets in their way, but I believe (want to anyway) three kids will be in the rotation. Two at the very least.



4.- To me, having two PGs at the same time is more a matter of maximizing your talent on the court. I want my best players out there unless it is ridiculous. Bledsoe-Dragic was actually a good formula as they played into each other's strengths while mitigating their flaws. On the other hand, using three PGs at the same time was taking that approach way too far. Dragic nominally at SF, and never ever the only PG on the court? Come on. Now that's ridiculous and Hornacek has to take blame for that.

I get that minutes are scarce and that the backcourt was overcrowded, but honestly 3 PGs is something I had not even remotely thought about when the roster got set. Worked to some extent at times but at the cost of alienating Dragic. Fail. The funny thing is that now we have the exact opposite problem as the roster lacks a real third PG and the season is long. Tyler Ennis would have been nice.

How Bledsoe-Knight works out remains to be seen. At the very least, turns out they are not overpaid if nothing stupid happens.

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So what's my opinion regarding Hornacek? Like McD, in 14-15 he jettisoned a good chunk of the credit he built in 13-14. Unlike the GM though, he is an executor not an architect. But he has to learn. The inmates can't get again to run the assylum. He must get through certain players' skulls so they keep it simple and don't make stupid mistakes. Accountability. Defense. The rotation needs to make sense. Needs be less passive on the sideline.

So if nothing changes substantially, it will be time to start looking for something else but at least for one more season I won't be claiming for his head.

[Superbone]

Asking if he's a bad influence is preposterous in my mind. Whether he's a good coach or not remains to be seen. I should be able to give you a considered opinion after this upcoming season.

[SDC]

horny is a good coach. who else do you have in mind to coach this team? does he want to coach this team?

[JCSunsfan]

I've read some stuff that I'm too lazy to dig up -- supposedly the Morris Twins had their "family" in the locker room, which included Archie and some others, but left Dragic and Hornacek looking in from the outside. If the Morris "family" was able to produce wins, that's great, assuming that you're ok losing Dragic and Hornacek. If all that it produced was technical fouls and felony indictments...well...you know what to do.

I cannot imagine how a coach can run a team without veteran leadership. If this is true about the Morris twins, and it seems it is, the situation was an impossible one for the coach. Once Frye was traded Markieff saw himself as the "LeBron" of the team. In his mind he took over the veteran leadership that Frye left. He also saw himself as having more tenure than the coach and gm. Also, he had his brother to encourage him and add status in the locker room.

It was clear that there was tension between Dragic and the Morrii. At some point last year, there was a locker room fight between the two (I seem to recall). It might well be that Goran's departure had as much to to with the Morrii as anything else.

Markieff saw himself as a power player (in a political sense) and a king maker on this team. He has had his wings clipped. Now he wants out. He reactions since Marcus was traded indicate that all this is true.

[Indy]

First, let me say that last season was a clusterfuck from top to bottom and the coach has to take his share of the blame, although I believe players and FO dealt him a terrible hand.

_______________

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So what's my opinion regarding Hornacek? Like McD, in 14-15 he jettisoned a good chunk of the credit he built in 13-14. Unlike the GM though, he is an executor not an architect. But he has to learn. The inmates can't get again to run the assylum. He must get through certain players' skulls so they keep it simple and don't make stupid mistakes. Accountability. Defense. The rotation needs to make sense. Needs be less passive on the sideline.

So if nothing changes substantially, it will be time to start looking for something else but at least for one more season I won't be claiming for his head.

Great summary, Ring.

[virtual9mm]

I've read some stuff that I'm too lazy to dig up -- supposedly the Morris Twins had their "family" in the locker room, which included Archie and some others, but left Dragic and Hornacek looking in from the outside. If the Morris "family" was able to produce wins, that's great, assuming that you're ok losing Dragic and Hornacek. If all that it produced was technical fouls and felony indictments...well...you know what to do.

I cannot imagine how a coach can run a team without veteran leadership. If this is true about the Morris twins, and it seems it is, the situation was an impossible one for the coach. Once Frye was traded Markieff saw himself as the "LeBron" of the team. In his mind he took over the veteran leadership that Frye left. He also saw himself as having more tenure than the coach and gm. Also, he had his brother to encourage him and add status in the locker room.

It was clear that there was tension between Dragic and the Morrii. At some point last year, there was a locker room fight between the two (I seem to recall). It might well be that Goran's departure had as much to to with the Morrii as anything else.

Markieff saw himself as a power player (in a political sense) and a king maker on this team. He has had his wings clipped. Now he wants out. He reactions since Marcus was traded indicate that all this is true.

Wow. I'd forgotten about that. Maybe we really are dealing with the last remnants of Blanks, who drafted Markieff because he liked the twins' "bullying behavior".

[Superbone]

Good riddance to the Morris Twins. They are toxic.

[Mori Chu]

2015-16 goal: Zero knuckleheads.

[ShelC]

As in most cases, the coach's ability and success depends on the roster. 13-14's roster lent itself more to Hornacek's coaching style and abilities. 14-15's roster did not. I don't think Hornacek is the hard nosed disciplinarian who's going to get in a guy's face, which is what we may have needed last year. A bunch of players seemingly took advantage of that and maybe didn't respect him overall. Hopefully that changes with the likes of Knight, Chandler, Booker added into the mix. Better leadership, more guys buying in and alienating the assholes instead of vice versa (which is the impression I got last season).

[Superbone]

Good take, Shel.

[Ring_Wanted]

An article from BSotS about the Morrii fiasco has brought me back something I had absolutely forgotten about the technical fouls issue.

Hornacek set the lame (but needed, that's what makes it sad) rule of benching the player, only to agreed to remove it after less than 20 days.

"We talked about it," Hornacek said to the media at practice. "We've tried both ways and we're just going to try to do a better job as a team, as teammates, to corral each other when they start to argue. The guys came up with that."

28-20 at the time.

The author comes to the conclusion that such was the reaction of a defeated coach who gave out in trying to teach those players.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/ ... snt-been-a

Man was 14-15 ugly.

[Superbone]

Man was 14-15 ugly.

Especially after a surprisingly bright 13-14.

[Indy]

Man was 14-15 ugly.

Especially after a surprisingly bright 13-14.

I think less dim is a better way of describing it. It just seems so much better than last year that we remember it with much more fondness. It was still the 4th year in a row of missing the playoffs.

[Superbone]

Man was 14-15 ugly.

Especially after a surprisingly bright 13-14.

I think less dim is a better way of describing it. It just seems so much better than last year that we remember it with much more fondness. It was still the 4th year in a row of missing the playoffs.

Nah. It was 12-13 which made it so bright.

[Indy]

How can you consider a year like that "so bright" if not comparing it to how awful the years around it are? Being in the bottom half of teams is never bright. Maybe you can see glimpses of how bright your future might be, but in the moment it was still pretty dark.

[Superbone]

How can you consider a year like that "so bright" if not comparing it to how awful the years around it are? Being in the bottom half of teams is never bright. Maybe you can see glimpses of how bright your future might be, but in the moment it was still pretty dark.

But I am comparing it to the awful years around it. 12-13 was the worst year in all my Suns' fandom. (I don't remember much about the drug years.) Of course it's not bright on its own.