TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson

[virtual9mm]

Sounds like it's time for you to find a new forum.

I think we can be better than this. I don't want anybody telling anybody here that they should get out. If we were all hanging out in person at my house, would you come over and then tell somebody else they should leave?

If a given user doesn't want to interact with another user, you can always mute / block their posts. It's imperfect due to quoting, but it will reduce the noise level a lot. Or you can just scroll past; it's okay to just ignore messages you don't agree with or don't want to engage with.

I love all you darn weirdos and want all of you to keep coming to the site for a long time. Kumbaya, mother fuckers!

Thanks again for giving us this site!

[TOO]

Simmons didn't include Ayton in his top 65 NBA trade value rankings, but now he's saying the Suns sold too low on him. Classic Simmons self contradiction.

Yep, Simmons is a total clown.

[The Bobster]

To me Ayton is also a little like the Joe Johnson situation when he was here. Johnson was stuck in the pecking order behind Nash, Stoudamire and Marion but ultimately wanted a bigger role and more money. So the Suns traded him for a lesser part (Boris Diaw) and kept right on rolling.

It will be interesting to see where Ayton tops out as a player. I think it'll end up being as a borderline All-Star, and he'll probably get whomever he plays for 20 & 10 every year, but the big question is will he step up in the big moments and be a leader? Will he consistently do the little things to help the team win? And those are the things the Suns needed from their 4th-best player. They decided to go with dependability over potential.

I was probably one of the ones around here who liked Ayton the most, but his flaws are undeniable and there's been little progress in eliminating them.

[ShelC]

I think he could be an All-Star as an injury replacement in the near future under the right circumstances - say, Portland becomes the up and coming team with him and Scoot that the NBA wants to give a push to and veteran guys like AD, Jokic decline the spot for rest or legit injury. But I don't think he'll be so dominant leading the Blazers or outplaying all the other bigs in the west that he'd get voted in.

[JeremyG]

It’s amazing, just looking at the comments on the Suns’ Instagram, what this team did to the fanbase. Everyone was excited for this season, perhaps more than any before, and for many (most?) fans that excitement has now been decimated. Now fans are more disgusted, disappointed, and depressed instead. What a way to start off a season.

A lot of fans have emotional attachments to players, which it seems many Ayton supporters share. All these "disgusted" fans will be just fine when the Suns are in the playoffs while Ayton is off chasing adult entertainment after the season ends.

Probably half of those people aren’t even Ayton fans, though, they just don’t like making a trade that makes the team worse. But for the rest of them, yes, thank you for acknowledging what people on here were telling me was ridiculous in February: that if Ishbia came in and immediately traded our hometown, first ever #1 pick, there would be an emotional reaction against him from a significant portion of the fanbase. Especially if it’s to downgrade.

[JeremyG]

Just because someone made a strange argument doesn’t mean that it needs to be responded to. I think the five stages of coping explanation makes a lot of sense so maybe we should let those stages take their course and not get in the middle of this grievance blender.

This has been a long time coming. I'm glad it's finally here. I don't look forward to him lurking and shit posting anytime someone has a bad game. This kid will reach y2k and/or justwinbaby territory with his fan girling.

Absolutely incredible that you still act like you don’t know who I am from the old days. And you sure have a lot of nerve telling a moderator to shut up.

[JeremyG]

It’s pretty impressive how pessimistic you can be about just about everyone

I was optimistic about Ishbia until he started making money-saving moves like he's Robert Sarver. At least Sarver was willing to pay up to $100M in luxury taxes in order to win a title. Doesn't look like Ishbia is willing to get close to that.

Sarver didn’t pay a single dollar in luxury taxes over the last decade. Ishbia will be over 50 million in tax payments his first two years. Just because Sarver said he’d pay 100 million doesn’t mean anything. He never actually did.

Our tax bill actually went up with this trade…and yes they now have less committed money next season, but that means nothing. They could trade Allen for a long term deal or re-sign him to a bigger contract. It’s true they could also let him expire and just take the savings, but that hasn’t happened yet. If they do, you can call that a cost cutting move. The trade itself was not one.

It was, as far as future owed money. If they trade him for a long term contract or re-sign him, then you can say it wasn’t a cost-cutting trade. As of right now, it is.

He’s done so many other things to increase spending, I don’t know why you’re stuck on him cutting costs because of a couple fringe moves. Even Steve Ballmer wouldn’t spend 120 million on Eric Gordon. I don’t blame Ishbia for saving 40 million by salary dumping Saric and Payne. Those weren’t super important players…though Saric admittedly could have maybe been useful.

I don’t consider cutting the only point guard on the roster, who has proven capable of starting in the playoffs, a fringe move. Sorry. We could have had a starting five of 3 starters from the 2021 WCF plus Bradley Beal and Kevin Durant replacing Bridges and Crowder! In fact, that’s what it sounded like Vogel was preparing to do.

[JeremyG]

To me Ayton is also a little like the Joe Johnson situation when he was here. Johnson was stuck in the pecking order behind Nash, Stoudamire and Marion but ultimately wanted a bigger role and more money. So the Suns traded him for a lesser part (Boris Diaw) and kept right on rolling.

Kept right on rolling…sort of. And yet still to this day everyone talks about how the JJ trade likely prevented us from having at least one championship right now. I can definitely see the same thing happening with this trade.

And this is a little different, because there really was no excuse for not building around Booker and Ayton as the 1-2 punch. They just kept moving Ayton down the pecking order instead of developing him. That’s not what you should do when you pick someone #1 overall.

[Split T]

I don’t understand your thought process Jeremy, but you do you.

Cam Payne hasn’t been good since that 2021 season either. He’s also still out there as a free agent. He’s gonna be a minimum signing and you think Ishbia should’ve spent 25 million on him. I’ll also note that we used the TPE created by him to get Nassir Little…so technically we didn’t save any money.

[Drewsprocket]

To me Ayton is also a little like the Joe Johnson situation when he was here. Johnson was stuck in the pecking order behind Nash, Stoudamire and Marion but ultimately wanted a bigger role and more money. So the Suns traded him for a lesser part (Boris Diaw) and kept right on rolling.

Kept right on rolling…sort of. And yet still to this day everyone talks about how the JJ trade likely prevented us from having at least one championship right now. I can definitely see the same thing happening with this trade.

And this is a little different, because there really was no excuse for not building around Booker and Ayton as the 1-2 punch. They just kept moving Ayton down the pecking order instead of developing him. That’s not what you should do when you pick someone #1 overall.

I know I can keep scrolling but like a moth to the flame I go; dude that debate is dead. This team has three top scorers, Suns are not going to develop Ayton into the player of YOUR dreams. You can believe Eddie Johnson for putting it nicely, that he struggled not getting the touches he wanted and it impacted his engagement or you can believe guys like me who think Ayton is a young man not happy with the role he was given and mature enough to develop his game to command the ball more. They gave Ayton touches in his career but he just wasn’t ready. He never expanded his ball handling or developed a go to shot. Ayton relied on being spoon fed his little tip drill shots or his middy. Live in the reality you live in man. Maybe it can happen for him in PDX, either way idc. I’m glad he was good when he was good but I’m happier to root for a center who is gonna make his teammates better.

[JeremyG]

To me Ayton is also a little like the Joe Johnson situation when he was here. Johnson was stuck in the pecking order behind Nash, Stoudamire and Marion but ultimately wanted a bigger role and more money. So the Suns traded him for a lesser part (Boris Diaw) and kept right on rolling.

Kept right on rolling…sort of. And yet still to this day everyone talks about how the JJ trade likely prevented us from having at least one championship right now. I can definitely see the same thing happening with this trade.

And this is a little different, because there really was no excuse for not building around Booker and Ayton as the 1-2 punch. They just kept moving Ayton down the pecking order instead of developing him. That’s not what you should do when you pick someone #1 overall.

I know I can keep scrolling but like a moth to the flame I go; dude that debate is dead. This team has three top scorers, Suns are not going to develop Ayton into the player of YOUR dreams. You can believe Eddie Johnson for putting it nicely, that he struggled not getting the touches he wanted and it impacted his engagement or you can believe guys like me who think Ayton is a young man not happy with the role he was given and mature enough to develop his game to command the ball more. They gave Ayton touches in his career but he just wasn’t ready. He never expanded his ball handling or developed a go to shot. Ayton relied on being spoon fed his little tip drill shots or his middy. Live in the reality you live in man. Maybe it can happen for him in PDX, either way idc. I’m glad he was good when he was good but I’m happier to root for a center who is gonna make his teammates better.

Perhaps you missed the "was" in my statement? Past tense. Not saying it would have been realistic to try to make him into the #2 option this season, after they have three top scorers on the roster. They screwed up year one (Igor having no clue what to even do with a center) and it kept getting worse every year after that, as they started bringing in players to knock him down the pecking order. You have to feature him as one of your top two players in order for him to develop into a #2 next to Booker. The only way is by experience, and being allowed to make mistakes, which his coaches (GM too?) did not give him the opportunity to even find out what the #1 pick could be.

[JeremyG]

For me, it’s more about it being a completely new team. It’s hard to get excited about rooting for a bunch of players we hardly know. Ayton was frustrating, but it’s the devil we knew.

But he was going to keep us from winning a championship.
It’s basic math.

No team has won a championship with a player on a max contract that wasn’t at least an all star. The only one would be Jamal Murray last year, but he will have a few before nods before too long. Not sure Ayton will ever be an all star. At least hasn’t shown enough to even begin entertaining the idea.

He will definitely be a future All-Star, and could have even been one this season on the Suns.

What is a historical fact is that you can’t win a championship without a great big, unless you’re the Warriors. This has held true going all the way back to Michael Jordan (25 years):

NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS SINCE JORDAN
2023: Nuggets (Jokic)
2022: Warriors
2021: Bucks (Antetokounmpo)
2020: Lakers (Davis)
2019: Raptors (Siakam)
2018: Warriors
2017: Warriors
2016: Cavaliers (Love)
2015: Warriors
2014: Spurs (Duncan)
2013: Heat (Bosh)
2012: Heat (Bosh)
2011: Mavericks (Nowitzki)
2010: Lakers (Gasol)
2009: Lakers (Gasol)
2008: Celtics (Garnett)
2007: Spurs (Duncan)
2006: Heat (O’Neal)
2005: Spurs (Duncan)
2004: Pistons (B. Wallace—elite rebounding/defending DPOY All-Star big, and R. Wallace)
2003: Spurs (Duncan, and Robinson)
2002: Lakers (O’Neal)
2001: Lakers (O’Neal)
2000: Lakers (O’Neal)
1999: Spurs (Duncan, and Robinson)

(I basically just did that from memory, so if I got something wrong, let me know.)

But he was going to keep us from winning a championship.
It’s basic math.

So I say not having him is going to keep us from winning a championship.

It's basic math.

[Split T]

To me Ayton is also a little like the Joe Johnson situation when he was here. Johnson was stuck in the pecking order behind Nash, Stoudamire and Marion but ultimately wanted a bigger role and more money. So the Suns traded him for a lesser part (Boris Diaw) and kept right on rolling.

Kept right on rolling…sort of. And yet still to this day everyone talks about how the JJ trade likely prevented us from having at least one championship right now. I can definitely see the same thing happening with this trade.

And this is a little different, because there really was no excuse for not building around Booker and Ayton as the 1-2 punch. They just kept moving Ayton down the pecking order instead of developing him. That’s not what you should do when you pick someone #1 overall.

I know I can keep scrolling but like a moth to the flame I go; dude that debate is dead. This team has three top scorers, Suns are not going to develop Ayton into the player of YOUR dreams. You can believe Eddie Johnson for putting it nicely, that he struggled not getting the touches he wanted and it impacted his engagement or you can believe guys like me who think Ayton is a young man not happy with the role he was given and mature enough to develop his game to command the ball more. They gave Ayton touches in his career but he just wasn’t ready. He never expanded his ball handling or developed a go to shot. Ayton relied on being spoon fed his little tip drill shots or his middy. Live in the reality you live in man. Maybe it can happen for him in PDX, either way idc. I’m glad he was good when he was good but I’m happier to root for a center who is gonna make his teammates better.

Perhaps you missed the "was" in my statement? Past tense. Not saying it would have been realistic to try to make him into the #2 option this season, after they have three top scorers on the roster. They screwed up year one (Igor having no clue what to even do with a center) and it kept getting worse every year after that, as they started bringing in players to knock him down the pecking order. You have to feature him as one of your top two players in order for him to develop into a #2 next to Booker. The only way is by experience, and being allowed to make mistakes, which his coaches (GM too?) did not give him the opportunity to even find out what the #1 pick could be.

He was and could’ve been a true 2nd option in his 2nd year. His suspension threw things off though. Still he averaged the same number of shot attempts as Oubre. I think that was where things went the wrong way. That was his chance to be the player he wanted and he only played 38 games due to the suspension. Then CP3 came and he was never going to be more than a 3rd option.

Still he showed his value in that 3rd year as a 3rd option that played great D and rebounded. 16/12 on high efficiency, with great D, in the playoffs is what we wanted.

My biggest thing is they almost won a championship with him playing the 3rd option/Defense role. Seems like the perfect scenario, but he didn’t want to do that.

[Split T]

For me, it’s more about it being a completely new team. It’s hard to get excited about rooting for a bunch of players we hardly know. Ayton was frustrating, but it’s the devil we knew.

But he was going to keep us from winning a championship.
It’s basic math.

No team has won a championship with a player on a max contract that wasn’t at least an all star. The only one would be Jamal Murray last year, but he will have a few before nods before too long. Not sure Ayton will ever be an all star. At least hasn’t shown enough to even begin entertaining the idea.

He will definitely be a future All-Star, and could have even been one this season on the Suns.

What is a historical fact is that you can’t win a championship without a great big, unless you’re the Warriors. This has held true going all the way back to Michael Jordan (25 years):

NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS SINCE JORDAN
2023: Nuggets (Jokic)
2022: Warriors
2021: Bucks (Antetokounmpo)
2020: Lakers (Davis)
2019: Raptors (Siakam)
2018: Warriors
2017: Warriors
2016: Cavaliers (Love)
2015: Warriors
2014: Spurs (Duncan)
2013: Heat (Bosh)
2012: Heat (Bosh)
2011: Mavericks (Nowitzki)
2010: Lakers (Gasol)
2009: Lakers (Gasol)
2008: Celtics (Garnett)
2007: Spurs (Duncan)
2006: Heat (O’Neal)
2005: Spurs (Duncan)
2004: Pistons (B. Wallace—elite rebounding/defending DPOY All-Star big, and R. Wallace)
2003: Spurs (Duncan, and Robinson)
2002: Lakers (O’Neal)
2001: Lakers (O’Neal)
2000: Lakers (O’Neal)
1999: Spurs (Duncan, and Robinson)

(I basically just did that from memory, so if I got something wrong, let me know.)

But he was going to keep us from winning a championship.
It’s basic math.

So I say not having him is going to keep us from winning a championship.

It's basic math.

Good thing our team is kinda built after the mold of the Warriors…though I think it’s funny you count Siakam, Love, and Bosh as great bigs and not Draymond.

[Mori Chu]

What is a historical fact is that you can’t win a championship without a great big, unless you’re the Warriors. This has held true going all the way back to Michael Jordan (25 years):

NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS SINCE JORDAN
2023: Nuggets (Jokic)
2022: Warriors
2021: Bucks (Antetokounmpo)
2020: Lakers (Davis)
2019: Raptors (Siakam)
2018: Warriors
2017: Warriors
2016: Cavaliers (Love)
2015: Warriors
2014: Spurs (Duncan)
2013: Heat (Bosh)
2012: Heat (Bosh)

I looked at just the last 11-12 years. I bolded ones where I find your argument questionable. The Warriors didn't have a dominant big, and they won 4 titles. Also, Kevin Love on the '16 Cavs is not a dominant big; he was a PF who mostly stood in the corner and shot 3s. And Siakam is a PF/SF, not a "dominant big." Even Bosh is debatable, since he's more of a PF, and I don't think he was "dominant" or "great" by most definitions. Serviceable, good, but not great.

If you're going to count good/great PFs like Love, Siakam, Bosh, Draymond as dominant bigs, then we already have a dominant big: Kevin Durant.

[JeremyG]

For me, it’s more about it being a completely new team. It’s hard to get excited about rooting for a bunch of players we hardly know. Ayton was frustrating, but it’s the devil we knew.

But he was going to keep us from winning a championship.
It’s basic math.

No team has won a championship with a player on a max contract that wasn’t at least an all star. The only one would be Jamal Murray last year, but he will have a few before nods before too long. Not sure Ayton will ever be an all star. At least hasn’t shown enough to even begin entertaining the idea.

He will definitely be a future All-Star, and could have even been one this season on the Suns.

What is a historical fact is that you can’t win a championship without a great big, unless you’re the Warriors. This has held true going all the way back to Michael Jordan (25 years):

NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS SINCE JORDAN
2023: Nuggets (Jokic)
2022: Warriors
2021: Bucks (Antetokounmpo)
2020: Lakers (Davis)
2019: Raptors (Siakam)
2018: Warriors
2017: Warriors
2016: Cavaliers (Love)
2015: Warriors
2014: Spurs (Duncan)
2013: Heat (Bosh)
2012: Heat (Bosh)
2011: Mavericks (Nowitzki)
2010: Lakers (Gasol)
2009: Lakers (Gasol)
2008: Celtics (Garnett)
2007: Spurs (Duncan)
2006: Heat (O’Neal)
2005: Spurs (Duncan)
2004: Pistons (B. Wallace—elite rebounding/defending DPOY All-Star big, and R. Wallace)
2003: Spurs (Duncan, and Robinson)
2002: Lakers (O’Neal)
2001: Lakers (O’Neal)
2000: Lakers (O’Neal)
1999: Spurs (Duncan, and Robinson)

(I basically just did that from memory, so if I got something wrong, let me know.)

But he was going to keep us from winning a championship.
It’s basic math.

So I say not having him is going to keep us from winning a championship.

It's basic math.

Good thing our team is kinda built after the mold of the Warriors…though I think it’s funny you count Siakam, Love, and Bosh as great bigs and not Draymond.

He's just not traditionally labeled as a big, but if you want to, then we really have no chance.

[JeremyG]

What is a historical fact is that you can’t win a championship without a great big, unless you’re the Warriors. This has held true going all the way back to Michael Jordan (25 years):

NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS SINCE JORDAN
2023: Nuggets (Jokic)
2022: Warriors
2021: Bucks (Antetokounmpo)
2020: Lakers (Davis)
2019: Raptors (Siakam)
2018: Warriors
2017: Warriors
2016: Cavaliers (Love)
2015: Warriors
2014: Spurs (Duncan)
2013: Heat (Bosh)
2012: Heat (Bosh)

I looked at just the last 11-12 years. I bolded ones where I find your argument questionable. The Warriors didn't have a dominant big, and they won 4 titles. Also, Kevin Love on the '16 Cavs is not a dominant big; he was a PF who mostly stood in the corner and shot 3s. And Siakam is a PF/SF, not a "dominant big." Even Bosh is debatable, since he's more of a PF, and I don't think he was "dominant" or "great" by most definitions. Serviceable, good, but not great.

If you're going to count good/great PFs like Love, Siakam, Bosh, Draymond as dominant bigs, then we already have a dominant big: Kevin Durant.

Notice I said, "unless you're the Warriors." I am not counting Draymond as a big, and KD is a wing, not a big.

I didn't say "dominant big" I said "great big"--maybe good-to-great would be better (which would certainly fit DA). "Big" doesn't have to mean C, it can be a traditional PF.

I definitely consider Love and Bosh to be good-to-great bigs. Perhaps you're right about Siakam not being a traditional big (closer to KD)--although he was playing next to Marc Gasol and I think we all agree that they only won due to two devastating injuries.

[Mori Chu]

"can’t win a championship without a great big"

- except for 4 of the last 9 titles
- except I actually mean "good"
- except PFs count as bigs, except when they don't

It's just poppycock. Some title teams have great big men, and some don't. I don't think the data supports your argument.

[Shabazz]

To me Ayton is also a little like the Joe Johnson situation when he was here. Johnson was stuck in the pecking order behind Nash, Stoudamire and Marion but ultimately wanted a bigger role and more money. So the Suns traded him for a lesser part (Boris Diaw) and kept right on rolling.

Kept right on rolling…sort of. And yet still to this day everyone talks about how the JJ trade likely prevented us from having at least one championship right now. I can definitely see the same thing happening with this trade.

And this is a little different, because there really was no excuse for not building around Booker and Ayton as the 1-2 punch. They just kept moving Ayton down the pecking order instead of developing him. That’s not what you should do when you pick someone #1 overall.

I know I can keep scrolling but like a moth to the flame I go; dude that debate is dead. This team has three top scorers, Suns are not going to develop Ayton into the player of YOUR dreams. You can believe Eddie Johnson for putting it nicely, that he struggled not getting the touches he wanted and it impacted his engagement or you can believe guys like me who think Ayton is a young man not happy with the role he was given and mature enough to develop his game to command the ball more. They gave Ayton touches in his career but he just wasn’t ready. He never expanded his ball handling or developed a go to shot. Ayton relied on being spoon fed his little tip drill shots or his middy. Live in the reality you live in man. Maybe it can happen for him in PDX, either way idc. I’m glad he was good when he was good but I’m happier to root for a center who is gonna make his teammates better.

Perhaps you missed the "was" in my statement? Past tense. Not saying it would have been realistic to try to make him into the #2 option this season, after they have three top scorers on the roster. They screwed up year one (Igor having no clue what to even do with a center) and it kept getting worse every year after that, as they started bringing in players to knock him down the pecking order. You have to feature him as one of your top two players in order for him to develop into a #2 next to Booker. The only way is by experience, and being allowed to make mistakes, which his coaches (GM too?) did not give him the opportunity to even find out what the #1 pick could be.

He was and could’ve been a true 2nd option in his 2nd year. His suspension threw things off though. Still he averaged the same number of shot attempts as Oubre. I think that was where things went the wrong way. That was his chance to be the player he wanted and he only played 38 games due to the suspension. Then CP3 came and he was never going to be more than a 3rd option.

Still he showed his value in that 3rd year as a 3rd option that played great D and rebounded. 16/12 on high efficiency, with great D, in the playoffs is what we wanted.

My biggest thing is they almost won a championship with him playing the 3rd option/Defense role. Seems like the perfect scenario, but he didn’t want to do that.

Yup. And unfortunately the reality is when a team is competing for a title it's not the best environment to work on player development. That's not Ayton's fault or the Suns' fault.

He can go shoot as many 3s and attack off the dribble as much as he wants now in Portland. Their games don't matter. But he will never be an offensive focal point for any team if he can't either become a reliable 3 point shooter or draw free throws.

[JeremyG]

Kept right on rolling…sort of. And yet still to this day everyone talks about how the JJ trade likely prevented us from having at least one championship right now. I can definitely see the same thing happening with this trade.

And this is a little different, because there really was no excuse for not building around Booker and Ayton as the 1-2 punch. They just kept moving Ayton down the pecking order instead of developing him. That’s not what you should do when you pick someone #1 overall.

I know I can keep scrolling but like a moth to the flame I go; dude that debate is dead. This team has three top scorers, Suns are not going to develop Ayton into the player of YOUR dreams. You can believe Eddie Johnson for putting it nicely, that he struggled not getting the touches he wanted and it impacted his engagement or you can believe guys like me who think Ayton is a young man not happy with the role he was given and mature enough to develop his game to command the ball more. They gave Ayton touches in his career but he just wasn’t ready. He never expanded his ball handling or developed a go to shot. Ayton relied on being spoon fed his little tip drill shots or his middy. Live in the reality you live in man. Maybe it can happen for him in PDX, either way idc. I’m glad he was good when he was good but I’m happier to root for a center who is gonna make his teammates better.

Perhaps you missed the "was" in my statement? Past tense. Not saying it would have been realistic to try to make him into the #2 option this season, after they have three top scorers on the roster. They screwed up year one (Igor having no clue what to even do with a center) and it kept getting worse every year after that, as they started bringing in players to knock him down the pecking order. You have to feature him as one of your top two players in order for him to develop into a #2 next to Booker. The only way is by experience, and being allowed to make mistakes, which his coaches (GM too?) did not give him the opportunity to even find out what the #1 pick could be.

He was and could’ve been a true 2nd option in his 2nd year. His suspension threw things off though. Still he averaged the same number of shot attempts as Oubre. I think that was where things went the wrong way. That was his chance to be the player he wanted and he only played 38 games due to the suspension. Then CP3 came and he was never going to be more than a 3rd option.

Still he showed his value in that 3rd year as a 3rd option that played great D and rebounded. 16/12 on high efficiency, with great D, in the playoffs is what we wanted.

My biggest thing is they almost won a championship with him playing the 3rd option/Defense role. Seems like the perfect scenario, but he didn’t want to do that.

Yup. And unfortunately the reality is when a team is competing for a title it's not the best environment to work on player development. That's not Ayton's fault or the Suns' fault.

Except we weren't competing for a title his first two years. Maybe if we had developed him better those first two years, we actually could have won a title in his third year.