Game Day: Suns (17-30) @ Pacers (25-22), Wed 1/24/18

[Bucktastic365]

I absolutely think it's a glaring weakness. You don't draft in a vacuum. The dude first put together a team with 3 PGs and they weren't happy.

Then he went and drafted 2 small forwards, and 2 power forwards. We have no PG, no C. He has no clue how to build a team.

He’s drafting en mass, until the cream rises to the top. In a perfect world every pick becomes a Booker, but in reality 75% of players drafted will become washouts, so by doubling up on positions it increases the odds of a hit.

Ryan is drafting for pillars in bulk, and I’m quite sure free agency will EVENTUALLY be used to fill the gaps.

[djy2j]

What a shit show. If I had paid to see that game I'd have been pissed.

I am trying to find positive things about that game but there aren't many because most of the stats were padded after the Pacers were up 40.

They did a pretty good job defensively covering Booker and making him give the ball up and Warren didn't really step up enough to take any pressure off.

Bender sucks. I know we are still trying to be patient with him but he's played 92 games now and has had maybe 10 good games I'd say. It's just not enough for a guy who's been playing professionally since like 15 right? He's way closer to the Nikolas Tskitisvili end of the spectrum than anything else right now. He was invisible out there.

I think if Canaan is on the team still after the trade deadline then it will symbolize a very underwhelming deadline. I'm fine with bringing another G Leaguer in at this point. He puts up 16 pts about every 4th game. Other games he like 2-7 or 2-9.

Getting down 40 to the Pacers isn't OK. I was leaning towards keeping Triano just for some continuity but now I'm leaning away from it.

[Superbone]

The Pacers played D at a whole different level. They were really getting into our guys whereas our guys gave them space on D. That's the next step for us to improve defensively.

[Superbone]

I haven't even come close to giving up on Bender. Dude is still so young. He's probably still another year or two away. If we draft an international player that young, have to be willing to give the guy a few years to learn and grow.

Agreed. Bender has also shown some pretty good glimpses of what he could become, especially on the defensive end. Not enough to count on night to night, and his recent starting run has been underwhelming, but he's shown enough to keep the faith for a little longer.

I hear you guys. It's just tough watching him hang his head instead of going harder when he makes a mistake.

Unfortunately, Bender is lacking heart and intensity and I can't recall any players that learned that later in their career.

[In2ition]

I haven't even come close to giving up on Bender. Dude is still so young. He's probably still another year or two away. If we draft an international player that young, have to be willing to give the guy a few years to learn and grow.

Agreed. Bender has also shown some pretty good glimpses of what he could become, especially on the defensive end. Not enough to count on night to night, and his recent starting run has been underwhelming, but he's shown enough to keep the faith for a little longer.

I hear you guys. It's just tough watching him hang his head instead of going harder when he makes a mistake.

Unfortunately, Bender is lacking heart and intensity and I can't recall any players that learned that later in their career.

Men's pro sports tend to be an alpha man activity. He certainly hasn't shown that he has alpha male traits.

[specialsauce]

I haven't even come close to giving up on Bender. Dude is still so young. He's probably still another year or two away. If we draft an international player that young, have to be willing to give the guy a few years to learn and grow.

Agreed. Bender has also shown some pretty good glimpses of what he could become, especially on the defensive end. Not enough to count on night to night, and his recent starting run has been underwhelming, but he's shown enough to keep the faith for a little longer.

I hear you guys. It's just tough watching him hang his head instead of going harder when he makes a mistake.

Unfortunately, Bender is lacking heart and intensity and I can't recall any players that learned that later in their career.

I’ve said it since the offseason and have been chastised. You can’t fix a passive personality.

[Indy]

I haven't even come close to giving up on Bender. Dude is still so young. He's probably still another year or two away. If we draft an international player that young, have to be willing to give the guy a few years to learn and grow.

Agreed. Bender has also shown some pretty good glimpses of what he could become, especially on the defensive end. Not enough to count on night to night, and his recent starting run has been underwhelming, but he's shown enough to keep the faith for a little longer.

I hear you guys. It's just tough watching him hang his head instead of going harder when he makes a mistake.

Unfortunately, Bender is lacking heart and intensity and I can't recall any players that learned that later in their career.

I’ve said it since the offseason and have been chastised. You can’t fix a passive personality.

I am not disagreeing, but think about his upbringing versus most American players. If you think about high school, I would best 99% of all American NBA players were the best player on their team from day 1. At 15, Bender was playing professionally, meaning he was end of bench material. That was only 4 years ago. Instead of promoting him and building an offense around him and telling him he needs to be #1 (like nearly every American NBA player), he was raised the exact opposite. I don't expect him to take a huge step forward his first year in the league, especially with Watson's methods. But I am all for giving guys time until they are legal to order a beer before deciding what they will or will not be.

[specialsauce]

Your argument would be valid if other European players didn’t come over and immediately debunk it. Sorry Indy, I disagree

[JustWinBaby]

I just want to make another statement about MDA's time here.

Virtually all of those great players that Mike did not play or did not play enough to suit everyone on this and other boards in this town, never played another minute in the NBA.

Our current GM has traded away players for nothing in return and most of the players he traded away are starters on playoff teams.

I like Triano but McDonough will probably fire him this off season to create another excuse to keep his job.

Certainly the one constant is Sarver but at least MDA had the balls to leave town.

[JCSunsfan]

I just want to make another statement about MDA's time here.

Virtually all of those great players that Mike did not play or did not play enough to suit everyone on this and other boards in this town, never played another minute in the NBA.

Our current GM has traded away players for nothing in return and most of the players he traded away are starters on playoff teams.

I like Triano but McDonough will probably fire him this off season to create another excuse to keep his job.

Certainly the one constant is Sarver but at least MDA had the balls to leave town.

Let's see. Goran, Bledsoe, and Markeiff. Are those the great players of whom you speak? Oh yes. IT.

[JustWinBaby]

I just want to make another statement about MDA's time here.

Virtually all of those great players that Mike did not play or did not play enough to suit everyone on this and other boards in this town, never played another minute in the NBA.

Our current GM has traded away players for nothing in return and most of the players he traded away are starters on playoff teams.

I like Triano but McDonough will probably fire him this off season to create another excuse to keep his job.

Certainly the one constant is Sarver but at least MDA had the balls to leave town.

Who said they are great players? However they are good enough to play extended minutes on playoff teams.

Let's see. Goran, Bledsoe, and Markeiff. Are those the great players of whom you speak? Oh yes. IT.

Who on our roster is better than Goran?

Maybe Booker. I am a huge fan of him just as most Suns Fans but has he made us better? The easy answer is he has, however where are the victories?

Which Point guard is better than Bledsoe. Ulis or Caanan?

Who do you think will be our point guard starting next season?

The popular choice is Brandon fucking Knight. Some fans seem OK with that. WTF

What PF is better then either Marcus or Markieff Morris? I know you would probably prefer anyone other than them - that is not the point.

What bench player do we have that is better than Gerald Green?

Why are we paying Dudley to basically sit on the bench, eat nachos and get fat?

Why doesn't anyone want Chandler or Brandon Knight? Those were two of the prized contracts he awarded along with Bledsoe as well as the bargain basement one he signed IT for.

Unless you are blind or somehow related to McDonough and or Sarver I have no idea how anyone can support the job he has done.

When evaluating he tenure he grades a solid F in my book.

This does not even include his choice of head coaches.

Enlighten me as to what good things he has done. I am looking for some light at the end of the tunnel.

[Split T]

Problem is he's mostly screwed up any good moves he made by making a bad one after it.

Original trade for Bledsoe was good. Re-signing him is debatable, but the contract is considered good right now. However, not trading him last year or over the summer was the big mistake.

Signing IT to a great contract was a good move in theory, but was a disaster on the court. Caused us to have to dump Dragic, our best player from the previous year. Still, he actually got good value for dragic and could have turned out ok, but he still felt the need to move IT.

My theory, we had the IT trade in place to appease Dragic, dragic didn't care and wanted out anyways. We should have just kept IT at that point, but IT wasn't happy with his role either. However, without dragic here, IT could have gotten more time with the ball. We probably weren't thrilled with an IT/Bledsoe backourt and decided to find a guard that fit better with bled. Enter Brandon Knight. Why we felt the need to include the Lakers pick is beyond me. Should have sent the pick we got from Cleveland for IT.

The Morris brothers contracts were a steal, but we know how that turned out. I blame the Morris twins more in that situation though.

Draft record has been shaky. Booker and Warren look like good picks. Len is not great. Bender and Chriss are meh, but still undetermined. Jackson is a question mark still.

If we move on from him I'd be fine, but I'm willing to give him 1 more summer. If we don't feel significantly better about our team at the start of next season, we need to move on.

[JustWinBaby]

Problem is he's mostly screwed up any good moves he made by making a bad one after it.

Original trade for Bledsoe was good. Re-signing him is debatable, but the contract is considered good right now. However, not trading him last year or over the summer was the big mistake.

Signing IT to a great contract was a good move in theory, but was a disaster on the court. Caused us to have to dump Dragic, our best player from the previous year. Still, he actually got good value for dragic and could have turned out ok, but he still felt the need to move IT.

My theory, we had the IT trade in place to appease Dragic, dragic didn't care and wanted out anyways. We should have just kept IT at that point, but IT wasn't happy with his role either. However, without dragic here, IT could have gotten more time with the ball. We probably weren't thrilled with an IT/Bledsoe backourt and decided to find a guard that fit better with bled. Enter Brandon Knight. Why we felt the need to include the Lakers pick is beyond me. Should have sent the pick we got from Cleveland for IT.

The Morris brothers contracts were a steal, but we know how that turned out. I blame the Morris twins more in that situation though.

Draft record has been shaky. Booker and Warren look like good picks. Len is not great. Bender and Chriss are meh, but still undetermined. Jackson is a question mark still.

If we move on from him I'd be fine, but I'm willing to give him 1 more summer. If we don't feel significantly better about our team at the start of next season, we need to move on.

The point is:

Are we better as a team/frachise since he arrived on the scene?

It really appears he has made far more bad moves than good ones.

That includes
1. Hiring and firing Coaches
2. Drafting players
3. Trading Players
4. Signing players to long term contracts.
5. Attractiing free agents.

I cannot see how he has excelled in any of those categories.

I have no idea why he gets any support from any Phoenix Sun Fan.

[Split T]

We're definitely better off right now than when he took over, never in a million years would I trade this roster for the 2012-2013 roster but that's mostly because we've been so bad during his tenure, gotten lots of high picks and we managed to draft Booker and Warren the two years we were decent. He needs to do something this summer though. Add a star or potential star.

Right now we've got Booker who is a #1 or #2. Too early on Jackson but he looks like a potential future #3 or #4. Not sure about Chriss, he still hasn't convinced me he's not a bust. Bender hasn't either, I don't see him much more than a role player anyways. Albeit, I think he could be a good one.

Our draft pick absolutely can't be in the Bender/Chriss tier and probably not even the Jackson tier. He needs to be a potential top 3 guy at worst and ideally a top 2 guy.

Additionally, we need to add another starter level player.

#1 Booker or 2018 draft pick
#2 2018 draft pick or Booker
#3 Jackson or FA/Trade/Mia Draft pick
#4 FA/Trade/Mia Draft pick or Jackson or Chriss
#5 Warren or Mia Draft pick/Trade/FA or Chriss or Bender
#6-#9 Chriss, Bender, Reed, Williams, Daniels, Ulis, FA, 2nd Rounders,

If McD can't set us up with a roster outlook like the one above by the start of 2018/2019, he needs to go.

[JustWinBaby]

We're definitely better off right now than when he took over, never in a million years would I trade this roster for the 2012-2013 roster but that's mostly because we've been so bad during his tenure, gotten lots of high picks and we managed to draft Booker and Warren the two years we were decent. He needs to do something this summer though. Add a star or potential star.

Right now we've got Booker who is a #1 or #2. Too early on Jackson but he looks like a potential future #3 or #4. Not sure about Chriss, he still hasn't convinced me he's not a bust. Bender hasn't either, I don't see him much more than a role player anyways. Albeit, I think he could be a good one.

Our draft pick absolutely can't be in the Bender/Chriss tier and probably not even the Jackson tier. He needs to be a potential top 3 guy at worst and ideally a top 2 guy.

Additionally, we need to add another starter level player.

#1 Booker or 2018 draft pick
#2 2018 draft pick or Booker
#3 Jackson or FA/Trade/Mia Draft pick
#4 FA/Trade/Mia Draft pick or Jackson or Chriss
#5 Warren or Mia Draft pick/Trade/FA or Chriss or Bender
#6-#9 Chriss, Bender, Reed, Williams, Daniels, Ulis, FA, 2nd Rounders,

If McD can't set us up with a roster outlook like the one above by the start of 2018/2019, he needs to go.

To Repeat: He has not shown any ability to accomplish any of the goals that you have set down for him to do this off season.

Why should I or anyone else have any confidence that he is going to make the correct decisions this off season.

He really has been a train wreck.

It is time to move on.

[carey]

I don't think McDonough has been a train wreck but he hasn't really been great. I did say earlier this year that I think it's time to get a new general manager.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

To Repeat: He has not shown any ability to accomplish any of the goals that you have set down for him to do this off season.

Why should I or anyone else have any confidence that he is going to make the correct decisions this off season.

He really has been a train wreck.

It is time to move on.

Yeah, let’s move on while talking endlessly about a Head Coach who leaved almost TEN FREAKING years ago!!

We all remember fondly those years, and it is great to talk about it every now and then, but it is not healthy to idealize them. Obviously many former players are still active around the league, but doing great? Are they all legit cornerstones on contenders? Perhaps Thomas, but he is a very particular case in a very particular team. There has been a lot of mismanagement, and tough breaks, specially that thing with keeping our players for too long... but many posters around here would be the same, either quitting to early (already crucifying Jackson) or keeping them for too long (some are still discussing about Joe J, Marion’s fans prompted a personalized meme, Nash and Amare still have crying widows, etc).

We were close to be a playoffs team, so it’s no surprise that many former players are playing for current playoffs teams (But guess what? Over half the league make it to the postseason, so it’s no so much of an accomplishment) yet many people around here kept asking for a full blowout of the team and a rebuilding, and guess what, you got your wish!!

But rebuilding it is not a straight line from point A to point B, neither a drawing by numbers paint. Easy to talk with hindsight at hand, and don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot of things like the Watson hiring that screamed disaster, but things like drafting Amare, hiring an euro coach, or signing Steve Nash into a long term contract back in the day also did it. You win some and lose some, but in both cases you always have to move on!!!

This current iteration is the closest to a group I can cheer for, since the SSOL years, beyond specific players. Never got hyped for the Bledsoe acquisition, disliked the Morrii the moment Marcus arrived, Gortat was always about business... Only Goran, Frye and some others made me feel like a fan. And still, since you asked why some people keep on supporting the team, well, that’s what fans do, unless you are a bandwagon dude willing to cheer for the absolute favorite, but Suns’ fan should know better, we are always the underdog, hoping for the lucky break that will take us to the promise land.

If you think after I don’t how many years following this team, that things are going to swift smoothly from point A to point B, I’m not sure what to tell you, most likely we will need an epic hero capable to take home our Trophy, after ripping it from the bare cold hands of gipsies, fortune gods and the absolutely best player in the league playing for the other team. We almost got it twice (Barkley, Steve), and I HOPE the third one will be the charm. I think it’s funnier to Hope, that to endlessly greave on the past, but that’s just me.

It feels sometimes like we have lost our capacity to dream, and have become a angry bunch of moneyballers, always thinking on terms of assets, draft positioning, great or awful contracts, cap space, advanced stats, next year prospects, etc...

[The Bobster]

Rebuilding isn't for the weak of heart.

You have to have some luck in where your picks fall and in what years (and the Suns haven't done well there).

And you have to make smart decisions, do a good job developing players and keep the fans engaged through the lean years (and the Suns haven't done well there either).

Still, things are probably bottoming out. The Suns' will shed some big contracts over the next couple of years when Monroe, Chandler and Dudley come off the books over the next two years, so unless they do something stupid and sign another "veteran presence" they should have a lot of cap flexibility.

If they re-sign Len, it looks like they will have about half of a decent rotation in place (Len, Booker, Warren, Jackson), and with hopes that Chriss or Bender pan out, Knight returns from injury as a competent contributor and the likelihood of another good prospect in the draft, they may have six or seven rotation players in place (then again, they may only have four or five if everything falls through and they draft poorly again.).

[Ring_Wanted]

Rebuilding isn't for the weak of heart.

You have to have some luck in where your picks fall and in what years (and the Suns haven't done well there).

And you have to make smart decisions, do a good job developing players and keep the fans engaged through the lean years (and the Suns haven't done well there either).

Still, things are probably bottoming out. The Suns' will shed some big contracts over the next couple of years when Monroe, Chandler and Dudley come off the books over the next two years, so unless they do something stupid and sign another "veteran presence" they should have a lot of cap flexibility.

Preach!

Also, I believe many fans have the sensation that we have been tanking for McD's entire tenure, when in reality it's been only these past two seasons and the current one. Three years of ugly rebuilding is far from uncommon, and he has a major superstar in the making to show for it, plus a 20ppg wing on a stupid good contract.

Then you have terrific cap flexibility and a lot of future assets. Plus whatever one wants to make out of Bender, Jackson and Chriss. Disregarding where the guys were picked, I'd take a solid 3D big with high IQ and a specimen wing with handles and affinity for defense. Chriss does nothing for me, though. I don't count Len either.

This is a very good position for the franchise strategically (all this is just my opinion, of course). The issue is actually turning all those positive things into a good product on the court.

Hiring a real catalyst at head coach and using wisely the cap and assets is what needs to be done next and will make or break the current regime.

[Superbone]

This is a very good position for the franchise strategically (all this is just my opinion, of course). The issue is actually turning all those positive things into a good product on the court.

Hiring a real catalyst at head coach and using wisely the cap and assets is what needs to be done next and will make or break the current regime.

This is where McD will make or break himself. This isn't the end point. Let's see how he combines and uses our assets. Next year should be a big uptick and the year after we need to be in the middle of the playoff race. If not, bye bye.