Elfrid Payton acquired!

[Wormwood]

Not sure this is the best place, but https://www.prosportstransactions.com/b ... e/Suns.htm says it isn't expected to transfer this year. Am I missing something?

“That moment when you can’t believe you are the team taking advantage...”

I think either we agreed to just take him off their hands but still have to send something in return, (so we send the pick less likely to convey) or they were so desperate to sold him for anything, that we forced them to take this pick among all. “Draft considerations” sounds much better than “let him walk for nothing”, and the casual fan mostly forgets to look out for what happened with a second rounder.

Quick, lock him up to a multi-year contract!

We better do it, that huge investment needs to be justified, a dubious second rounder for just half season on Elfrid? No way, we are no cowards!!!

There is a real possibility that Payton turns out to be a better player for us than Knight.

By every stat I can find, he's better than Knight. PER, TPA, RPM, WARP you name it.

[Split T]

Interesting stat I heard on empire of the Suns podcast. Elfrid Payton shooting percentage at the rim amongst pg's:

Rookie year: 98th percentile
2nd year: 93rd percentile
3rd year: 100th percentile
This year: 96th percentile

So a truly elite finisher at the rim.

[The Bobster]

Current Player Roster
(and years they are signed through)

C - Chandler ('19), Len ('18), Williams ('20)
PF - Bender ('20), Chriss ('20), Peters ('18)
SF - Warren ('22), Jackson ('21), Dudley ('19)
SG - Booker ('19), Daniels ('19), Reed ('20), House ('18)
PG - Payton ('18), Knight ('20), Ulis ('20), Gray ('18)

[carey]

Interesting stat I heard on empire of the Suns podcast. Elfrid Payton shooting percentage at the rim amongst pg's:

Rookie year: 98th percentile
2nd year: 93rd percentile
3rd year: 100th percentile
This year: 96th percentile

So a truly elite finisher at the rim.

I heard that as well. Did you also hear the part about his defensive rating? It is astronomically bad.

[Split T]

Yes I did hear that. However I did read an article (I'll see if I can find it) that kinda explained that defensive rating. Basically the only thing that changed about Orlando's defense when Payton was on the court was the opponents 3 pt% went way up. It was something like 40% when Payton is on the court and 33% when he's off.

However there is a stat that gives you expected fg% based on shot selection/defensive presence etc. and there is no difference between having Payton on or off the floor. That indicates there might be some lucky shot making going on against Payton.

[Split T]

https://twitter.com/KellanOlson/status/962076548319780864 I think Payton and Warren will play very well together. Defenses have to pay attention to Payton when he attacks the rim and he is really good at finding cutters. Warren is one of the better cutters in the league.

[Split T]

Yes I did hear that. However I did read an article (I'll see if I can find it) that kinda explained that defensive rating. Basically the only thing that changed about Orlando's defense when Payton was on the court was the opponents 3 pt% went way up. It was something like 40% when Payton is on the court and 33% when he's off.

However there is a stat that gives you expected fg% based on shot selection/defensive presence etc. and there is no difference between having Payton on or off the floor. That indicates there might be some lucky shot making going on against Payton.

From Kevin peltons grading of the trade

It's been a disappointing season for Payton despite him posting career-best offensive statistics. The Magic went 5-4 in the nine games he missed early in the season and have given up 9.4 more points per 100 possessions with Payton on the court, according to NBA Advanced Stats.

The problem is there's no particular reason to believe this is Payton's doing. As I noted early in the season, the big difference in Orlando's defensive stats with and without Payton is 3-point shooting. Opponents are making 41 percent of their 3s with Payton on the court and 32 percent with him on the bench. That difference is larger than the gap between the NBA's best team in terms of opponent 3-point percentage (the Philadelphia 76ers, at 33.5 percent) and the worst (the Sacramento Kings, at 38.4 percent). To the extent players have any control over opponent 3-point shooting, it's not plausible the difference could be that large.

Critics have pointed to Payton's defense at the point of attack, but this isn't reflected in terms of shot quality. Second Spectrum's qSQ rating measures the effective field goal percentage an average team would shoot given the location and type of shots taken and distance to the nearest defender. The Magic's qSQ with Payton (52.1 percent) is almost exactly the same as without him (52.3 percent). This is true even if we drill down just on 3-point attempts (54.3 percent with, 54.2 percent without). Orlando isn't giving up easier 3-point attempts with Payton on the court. They're just going in more often.

[O_Gardino]

Elfrid is still a bad defender. what that article shows is that he may not be sooo much worse tan the rest of the Magic. But they are all pretty bad.

Payton gets caught ball watching a lot on D and can react late even when we sees the play develop.

He'll still be more effective than Ulis, though.

[Split T]

Ya, didn't mean to say he was a good defender, just that the stats labeling him an atrocious defender may be a little misleading

[Cap]

Man that's a lot of hypotheticals and unknowns in Package A. As you already know, ping pong balls don't guarantee anything. And I'd say you have a MUCH better chance of keeping a FA after trading for him than you do recruiting him to come to Phoenix. Look at our history of stars. We've never(?) recruited a big time player to come here.

I'll take the sure thing than wishing for a miracle that so far we haven't done s*** with. We've had a ton of cap room for years and we've been looking to acquire assets from a team looking to dump salary, we've come away with absolutely nothing.

The only "sure thing" we'd have gotten with this deal is two years of flirting with .500.

If you really think that we would have acquired Irving and done nothing else, stood pat and ended up .500, there's really nothing to say. You've clearly made up your mind that the Suns are better off without him and you're trying to rationalize it yourself.

No, I think we're better off with all the assets in Package A. We weren't getting him for free.

Fair, and I don't think any of those assets will turn out to be better than Kyrie Irving and the team we would have built around he and Book. Agree to disagree.

I'm OK with "Agree to disagree."

You have a habit of bringing up the subject unprovoked and using strawman arguments to mock opponents of the trade. "Agree to disagree" means you knock that off. Of course, I'm happy to engage you in a serious discussion of the merits of the proposed trade any time.

[In2ition]

The only "sure thing" we'd have gotten with this deal is two years of flirting with .500.

If you really think that we would have acquired Irving and done nothing else, stood pat and ended up .500, there's really nothing to say. You've clearly made up your mind that the Suns are better off without him and you're trying to rationalize it yourself.

No, I think we're better off with all the assets in Package A. We weren't getting him for free.

Fair, and I don't think any of those assets will turn out to be better than Kyrie Irving and the team we would have built around he and Book. Agree to disagree.

I'm OK with "Agree to disagree."

You have a habit of bringing up the subject unprovoked and using strawman arguments to mock opponents of the trade. "Agree to disagree" means you knock that off. Of course, I'm happy to engage you in a serious discussion of the merits of the proposed trade any time.

Imo, it seems nearly everyone on this forum uses strawman arguments from time to time. I don't think specialsauce is an exception. Sorry to interject.

[O_Gardino]

Ya, didn't mean to say he was a good defender, just that the stats labeling him an atrocious defender may be a little misleading

Definitely agree.

[specialsauce]

The only "sure thing" we'd have gotten with this deal is two years of flirting with .500.

If you really think that we would have acquired Irving and done nothing else, stood pat and ended up .500, there's really nothing to say. You've clearly made up your mind that the Suns are better off without him and you're trying to rationalize it yourself.

No, I think we're better off with all the assets in Package A. We weren't getting him for free.

Fair, and I don't think any of those assets will turn out to be better than Kyrie Irving and the team we would have built around he and Book. Agree to disagree.

I'm OK with "Agree to disagree."

You have a habit of bringing up the subject unprovoked and using strawman arguments to mock opponents of the trade. "Agree to disagree" means you knock that off. Of course, I'm happy to engage you in a serious discussion of the merits of the proposed trade any time.

First of all, I did not bring this discussion into this thread, you did. Go back and look.

Second of all, I didn’t even start the discussion in the Spurs thread either.

Third of all, this is the second time during this discussion you have made it personal instead of sticking to basketball. First time I told you I would not engage you until you cooled off and spoke respectfully. This time, I will tell you to take your thoughts and shove them up your righteous ass. That is the only comment I’ll make and you won’t see me responding on this again.

[specialsauce]

If you really think that we would have acquired Irving and done nothing else, stood pat and ended up .500, there's really nothing to say. You've clearly made up your mind that the Suns are better off without him and you're trying to rationalize it yourself.

No, I think we're better off with all the assets in Package A. We weren't getting him for free.

Fair, and I don't think any of those assets will turn out to be better than Kyrie Irving and the team we would have built around he and Book. Agree to disagree.

I'm OK with "Agree to disagree."

You have a habit of bringing up the subject unprovoked and using strawman arguments to mock opponents of the trade. "Agree to disagree" means you knock that off. Of course, I'm happy to engage you in a serious discussion of the merits of the proposed trade any time.

Imo, it seems nearly everyone on this forum uses strawman arguments from time to time. I don't think specialsauce is an exception. Sorry to interject.

Thanks, In2.

[Superbone]

[MEDIA=facebook]id=10156097657798996;type=video[/MEDIA]

[carey]

What's that supposed to be?

[Cap]

What's that supposed to be?

[O_Gardino]

What's that supposed to be?

New city, new hair? Or is that just his practice style?

[EDC]

[youtube][/youtube]

That has to be a cut. Look at him here.

Never mind that first video is from 2014.

[In2ition]

Thank goodness he cut his hair. I have no idea how you could be a pg with that and it not bother something with your game.