Kinda what I'm afraid of. If the Clips don't throw an offer at Oubre (if they strike out on Kawhi) , we have some leverage but it could get ugly if we lowball like "hey, there's no more money out there. Take our offer or play out the year".
I hope James Jones, not Sarver, is the voice of reason in that room. I suspect that as a former player he might have a pretty good idea of what a bad contractual negotiation does to a player and a locker room. Sarver obviously has *experience* with this, but I expect his impulse might be to hardball.
I also hope Kelly doesn't come at all this from an unreasonable perspective... if he thinks he's worth $20 million no matter what the league tells him, then we're in a tough position. I wouldn't expect there to be any enticing S&T options. Not sure there are many solid FA options left, either, if we want to replace his scoring. How much faith do we want to place in Cam Johnson and Josh Jackson, in the alternative?
I don’t like the term “empty stats.” Ayton’s stats weren’t empty. The rebounds he got helped the team, his high efficiency scoring helped the team. If you want to say he didn’t impose his will on the game, then that is accurate, but I don’t see the empty stats narrative.
I may not have been clear in my previous post. When I said that all of our stats last season were "empty stats," that was not meant as a defense or argument for the concept of empty stats. To the contrary, my point was that one shouldn't just dismiss Ayton's numbers as "empty," because basically everything we did last season was equally "empty" in the sense that it didn't build toward a lot of wins or a playoff berth or anything concrete of that nature. So I think Ayton's numbers were equally meaningful to Booker's or anybody else's on the team. I think Ayton had a pretty good though not stellar rookie season, and that he can build on this to be even better next year. I think having a distributing PG and more overall roster talent and shooting around him will help give him space and get him the ball in more scoring positions. I think his numbers and quality of play will go up noticeably next year, and I'm here for it.
I hope James Jones, not Sarver, is the voice of reason in that room. I suspect that as a former player he might have a pretty good idea of what a bad contractual negotiation does to a player and a locker room. Sarver obviously has *experience* with this, but I expect his impulse might be to hardball.
I also hope Kelly doesn't come at all this from an unreasonable perspective... if he thinks he's worth $20 million no matter what the league tells him, then we're in a tough position. I wouldn't expect there to be any enticing S&T options. Not sure there are many solid FA options left, either, if we want to replace his scoring. How much faith do we want to place in Cam Johnson and Josh Jackson, in the alternative?
Yeah, I don't think it'd be a good situation if Oubre takes the QO. That'd basically be a sign that negotiations broke down and that Oubre wants to leave. I hope that instead they find some compromise by maybe giving him a declining contract. Give him $20m the first year, but it decreases down to say $15m or less by the last year of the deal. Or if he wants more than that, fine, let's help him out and trade him to a team that wants to overpay him.
I don’t like the term “empty stats.” Ayton’s stats weren’t empty. The rebounds he got helped the team, his high efficiency scoring helped the team. If you want to say he didn’t impose his will on the game, then that is accurate, but I don’t see the empty stats narrative.
I may not have been clear in my previous post. When I said that all of our stats last season were "empty stats," that was not meant as a defense or argument for the concept of empty stats. To the contrary, my point was that one shouldn't just dismiss Ayton's numbers as "empty," because basically everything we did last season was equally "empty" in the sense that it didn't build toward a lot of wins or a playoff berth or anything concrete of that nature. So I think Ayton's numbers were equally meaningful to Booker's or anybody else's on the team. I think Ayton had a pretty good though not stellar rookie season, and that he can build on this to be even better next year. I think having a distributing PG and more overall roster talent and shooting around him will help give him space and get him the ball in more scoring positions. I think his numbers and quality of play will go up noticeably next year, and I'm here for it.
Just a thought, but maybe a better way to talk about player impact vs stats is to talk about high gravity play vs low. Booker had high G stats, while Ayton got most of his points and rebounds in lower gravity situations when the defense wasn't terribly concerned with stopping him.
The league needs heroes, villains... and clowns. -- Aztec Sunsfan
Couldn't they give him a contract close to what he feels he's worth that includes incentives? I think that's allowed and a way for each side to get what they want. I don't want the Suns to play hardball and hold leverage over his head. It should be something totally reasonable that doesn't create hurt feelings either way. I think the Suns should be appreciative for the type of player and what he brings in the positive that includes to the culture of the team. Heck, they paid Dudley $10 mil a year for being a good guy.
"There are 3 rules I live by: never get less than 12 hours sleep, never play cards with a guy with the same first name as a city & never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Everything else is cream cheese."
Couldn't they give him a contract close to what he feels he's worth that includes incentives? I think that's allowed and a way for each side to get what they want. I don't want the Suns to play hardball and hold leverage over his head. It should be something totally reasonable that doesn't create hurt feelings either way. I think the Suns should be appreciative for the type of player and what he brings in the positive that includes to the culture of the team. Heck, they paid Dudley $10 mil a year for being a good guy.
Front office probably thinks they can just start Bridges and sign a guy like Hollis-Jefferson for a fraction of the price to come off the bench.
We'll see what happens. I'd give Kelly a deal averaging 18 and wouldn't think twice about it. I'm sure we're in the 12-14 range and playing hardball.
Funny, I think the $15-$16 range would be appropriate if we don't going In2's incentives route. Maybe all Kelly wants is the $$$ we gave Ariza. Maybe we'd think about that if we also got a Team Option. Who knows. I think it's pretty likely we get a deal done. He likes it here, doesn't he?
Kinda what I'm afraid of. If the Clips don't throw an offer at Oubre (if they strike out on Kawhi) , we have some leverage but it could get ugly if we lowball like "hey, there's no more money out there. Take our offer or play out the year".
You mean Eric Bledsoe 2.0? Yikes.
September 25, 2014:
"I learned long ago that it doesn't matter how stormy the sea is as long as the ship comes in, and today we are thrilled that the ship has come in and Eric will remain a Sun for a long time," Suns president of basketball operations Lon Babby said in a statement. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/115 ... r-contract
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
Letting him go is foolish. We don't know where the Suns stand in negotiations and are just assuming he's wanting an absurd amount of money that another team is willing to offer him or that he's going to do a 1-year deal. A lot of assumptions.
While I think Mikal will eventually be a really good player, Kelly is better today and in the near future. Mikal provides great depth. That is shot if you let Oubre go and throw him out there his 2nd season to start for us. He's too inconsistent.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton
Letting him go is foolish. We don't know where the Suns stand in negotiations and are just assuming he's wanting an absurd amount of money that another team is willing to offer him or that he's going to do a 1-year deal. A lot of assumptions.
While I think Mikal will eventually be a really good player, Kelly is better today and in the near future. Mikal provides great depth. That is shot if you let Oubre go and throw him out there his 2nd season to start for us. He's too inconsistent.
Yeah, it's a bit silly to just discard Oubre.
"There are 3 rules I live by: never get less than 12 hours sleep, never play cards with a guy with the same first name as a city & never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Everything else is cream cheese."
I'm sorry, but I really don't care about oubre. They should have kept tj warren, who earns 12 mil/yr. TJ's slightly underpaid.
For oubre, it's either he accepts the "lowball" offer or he finds anther team.
Don't sign him to the one yr deal. Don't want a cancer in the locker room
Clearly you just don't like Oubre. It has nothing to do with the contract offer, whether it's relatively team friendly or not. You'd be in favor of low balling him simply so he walks. What is it you don't like about him? Nothing at all indicates he's a cancer or ever would be.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton
Josh Jackson, Cam Johnson, mikal Bridges, Kelly oubre. That's a logjam at sf
Mikal can play some SG, Cam can play some PF in smaller lineups and Josh Jackson probably won't be around long if we re-sign Oubre.
What is smallball? I play basketball. I'm not a regular big man. I can switch from the center to the guards. The game is evolving. I'd be dominAyton if the WNBA would let me in. - Ayton
Let's just let the situation play itself out some. All we hear in conjecture and it's not enough to start drawing conclusions from.
Author of The Basketball Draft Fact Book: A History of Professional Basketball's College Drafts
Available from Scarecrow Press at - https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810890695
