NBA FA 2020 & Suns FA targets

[Split T]

There's no point in having Rubio and FVV on the roster at the same time. Creates an unnecessary logjam. Move Rubio and go all in with FVV or leave it alone and spend money on the rest of the roster.

Except it doesn’t. A 3 guard rotation of Booker/FVV/Rubio is no logjam. Do we not realize how bad our backup guard situation has been? You know we don’t have to bring a g league level guy off the bench? It’s ok to have a starter quality guy come off the bench, that’s how you have a good bench.

That's a championship caliber backcourt right there IF either FVV or Rubio wouldn't mind coming off the bench. How many other holes would there be, though?

Honestly I think that’s an Ayton developing into a star away from contending.

FVV/Booker/Bridges/Johnson/Ayton can be the starting lineup of a contender if Bridges/Johnson continue their development path and Ayton turns into a star. They can all defend(except maybe Booker) and they can all shoot(except maybe Ayton). Add a bench with Rubio/Saric as the backbone. Plus whatever we draft this year and who we sign with the room MLE. Playoff team next year and could build into a contender. Would be a no brainer move for me.

[Indy]

I think we are putting a lot of faith in Bridges and Johnson into playing day in and day out like they did for 8 games in a highly artificial environment. Despite how high I am on them from that experience, that REALLY scares me.

[Split T]

Bridges didn’t really do anything he hasn’t been doing his whole career. The shot is more consistent, but that started pre bubble. I’m not counting on the on ball stuff we saw from Bridges in the scrimmages. That would be a bonus. Fair point on Johnson though, I’d like to think it was playing more with the starters, but his play may be a bit of small sample size. I trust both of those guys to put in the work though, so I feel good about it.

[ShelC]

There's no point in having Rubio and FVV on the roster at the same time. Creates an unnecessary logjam. Move Rubio and go all in with FVV or leave it alone and spend money on the rest of the roster.

Except it doesn’t. A 3 guard rotation of Booker/FVV/Rubio is no logjam. Do we not realize how bad our backup guard situation has been? You know we don’t have to bring a g league level guy off the bench? It’s ok to have a starter quality guy come off the bench, that’s how you have a good bench.

It really does tho and it's some shit McD's done in the past. Just because the backup PG situation has been bad in the past doesn't mean it'll be bad going forward and doesn't mean you take a starter like Rubio and throw him on the bench. There's chemistry and team dynamic to take into account. It's not as easy as saying "this guy is good and available so let's bring him in and we'll automatically be better".

FWIW, I think this is all moot anyway. We'll either make trades to clear the roster for FVV or we won't sign him and probably never had a shot or even entertained it. Unless he or his agent are hinting that he wants to play here, he's not coming here. Some team will offer him $22+, if not a deal starting at $25.

[ShelC]

I think we are putting a lot of faith in Bridges and Johnson into playing day in and day out like they did for 8 games in a highly artificial environment. Despite how high I am on them from that experience, that REALLY scares me.

I'm all about managing expectations and not being too optimistic but I think to dismiss their play in the bubble is too pessimistic. Those game were basically do-or-die, playoff intensity games for us and those guys stepped up. I think we're maybe a little jaded because of the past decade, and rightfully so, but those two are players who are showing the proper development on both ends. That said, I wouldn't just give away Oubre based on their play and expect them to perform for 35mpg over 80 games next season without some depth, if that's what you're saying.

[Split T]

There's no point in having Rubio and FVV on the roster at the same time. Creates an unnecessary logjam. Move Rubio and go all in with FVV or leave it alone and spend money on the rest of the roster.

Except it doesn’t. A 3 guard rotation of Booker/FVV/Rubio is no logjam. Do we not realize how bad our backup guard situation has been? You know we don’t have to bring a g league level guy off the bench? It’s ok to have a starter quality guy come off the bench, that’s how you have a good bench.

It really does tho and it's some shit McD's done in the past. Just because the backup PG situation has been bad in the past doesn't mean it'll be bad going forward and doesn't mean you take a starter like Rubio and throw him on the bench. There's chemistry and team dynamic to take into account. It's not as easy as saying "this guy is good and available so let's bring him in and we'll automatically be better".

FWIW, I think this is all moot anyway. We'll either make trades to clear the roster for FVV or we won't sign him and probably never had a shot or even entertained it. Unless he or his agent are hinting that he wants to play here, he's not coming here. Some team will offer him $22+, if not a deal starting at $25.

Agree to disagree I guess. I just think it’s silly to say no to FVV because we have Rubio on the roster.

Not a lot of people have a problem asking oubre to go to the bench, but we can’t ask Rubio?

[jonh]

There's no point in having Rubio and FVV on the roster at the same time. Creates an unnecessary logjam. Move Rubio and go all in with FVV or leave it alone and spend money on the rest of the roster.

Except it doesn’t. A 3 guard rotation of Booker/FVV/Rubio is no logjam. Do we not realize how bad our backup guard situation has been? You know we don’t have to bring a g league level guy off the bench? It’s ok to have a starter quality guy come off the bench, that’s how you have a good bench.

It really does tho and it's some shit McD's done in the past. Just because the backup PG situation has been bad in the past doesn't mean it'll be bad going forward and doesn't mean you take a starter like Rubio and throw him on the bench. There's chemistry and team dynamic to take into account. It's not as easy as saying "this guy is good and available so let's bring him in and we'll automatically be better".

FWIW, I think this is all moot anyway. We'll either make trades to clear the roster for FVV or we won't sign him and probably never had a shot or even entertained it. Unless he or his agent are hinting that he wants to play here, he's not coming here. Some team will offer him $22+, if not a deal starting at $25.

Agree to disagree I guess. I just think it’s silly to say no to FVV because we have Rubio on the roster.

Not a lot of people have a problem asking oubre to go to the bench, but we can’t ask Rubio?

I was under the impression that people do have a problem with asking Oubre to go to the bench, and thats why there is so much discussion about trading him.

[In2ition]

There's no point in having Rubio and FVV on the roster at the same time. Creates an unnecessary logjam. Move Rubio and go all in with FVV or leave it alone and spend money on the rest of the roster.

Except it doesn’t. A 3 guard rotation of Booker/FVV/Rubio is no logjam. Do we not realize how bad our backup guard situation has been? You know we don’t have to bring a g league level guy off the bench? It’s ok to have a starter quality guy come off the bench, that’s how you have a good bench.

It really does tho and it's some shit McD's done in the past. Just because the backup PG situation has been bad in the past doesn't mean it'll be bad going forward and doesn't mean you take a starter like Rubio and throw him on the bench. There's chemistry and team dynamic to take into account. It's not as easy as saying "this guy is good and available so let's bring him in and we'll automatically be better".

FWIW, I think this is all moot anyway. We'll either make trades to clear the roster for FVV or we won't sign him and probably never had a shot or even entertained it. Unless he or his agent are hinting that he wants to play here, he's not coming here. Some team will offer him $22+, if not a deal starting at $25.

Agree to disagree I guess. I just think it’s silly to say no to FVV because we have Rubio on the roster.

Not a lot of people have a problem asking oubre to go to the bench, but we can’t ask Rubio?

I was under the impression that people do have a problem with asking Oubre to go to the bench, and thats why there is so much discussion about trading him.

Word is that Oubre wanted $20 mil per in his contract negotiations, Sarver offered $12 mil, they compromised on $15 mil and only 2 yrs.
The cynical part of me thinks that Oubre was only going to give what he thought was $15 mil worth of effort and games, which meant he wasn't going to play in the bubble, but needed to save face, so he went to cheer them on.
I'm not sure that Oubre is worth $20 mil, and this could be a point of contention with the org if he's asked to go to the bench. He may not feel like he's going to get $20 mil from a 6th man role. The org may not feel like he's worth quite that much either, but they can't extend him now and there will be a team that doesn't nab a big star next yr with their cap space and may settle on giving Oubre his money. Might need to get something now, before losing him for nothing.

[specialsauce]

You can’t have two players making a combined $32M coming off the bench. That’s silly and is going to cash strap you filling the rest of your roster.

I also have no interest in paying Oubre more than $10-12M per as a sixth man, and I agree a team will throw $20M at him. You cannot afford to see your best trade asset walk away without anything in return. Now is the best time to trade him while you can get something valuable in return to balance out your roster.

[Indy]

I think we are putting a lot of faith in Bridges and Johnson into playing day in and day out like they did for 8 games in a highly artificial environment. Despite how high I am on them from that experience, that REALLY scares me.

I'm all about managing expectations and not being too optimistic but I think to dismiss their play in the bubble is too pessimistic. Those game were basically do-or-die, playoff intensity games for us and those guys stepped up. I think we're maybe a little jaded because of the past decade, and rightfully so, but those two are players who are showing the proper development on both ends. That said, I wouldn't just give away Oubre based on their play and expect them to perform for 35mpg over 80 games next season without some depth, if that's what you're saying.

Of the 7000 minutes we played guys in the back court this year:

Booker 2160 + 25 @PG
Rubio 1754 + 262 @SG
Carter 945
Okobo 424 + 266 @SG
Johnson 191 + 299 @SG
Mikal 245
Jerome 115 + 112 @SG
C Payne 60 + 90 @SG
Oubre 39

Although I would prefer using Rubio to facilitate upgrading our roster, I don't see a big problem having FVV, Rubion and Booker on the team together.

If you keep Rubio (29%) and Book's (31%) minutes the same, and just bundle all of Tyler, Okobo, & Jerome's (20%) and split Carter's (14%) and you already have 27% of our entire back court minutes for FVV. And you probably switch that and give FVV closer to 30% and reduce Rubio a bit. Then fill the rest of your back court minutes with Carter primarily, then others in situational spots (Mikal).

[Indy]

You can’t have two players making a combined $32M coming off the bench. That’s silly and is going to cash strap you filling the rest of your roster.

I also have no interest in paying Oubre more than $10-12M per as a sixth man, and I agree a team will throw $20M at him. You cannot afford to see your best trade asset walk away without anything in return. Now is the best time to trade him while you can get something valuable in return to balance out your roster.

The MLE is over 10M. A 6th man on a good team (unless he is on a rookie contract) is going to command more than 10-12M.

[specialsauce]

You can’t have two players making a combined $32M coming off the bench. That’s silly and is going to cash strap you filling the rest of your roster.

I also have no interest in paying Oubre more than $10-12M per as a sixth man, and I agree a team will throw $20M at him. You cannot afford to see your best trade asset walk away without anything in return. Now is the best time to trade him while you can get something valuable in return to balance out your roster.

The MLE is over 10M. A 6th man on a good team (unless he is on a rookie contract) is going to command more than 10-12M.

No, it’s not. It’s projected to be $9.7M next season and that’s before COVID changes everything. Lou Williams makes $8M/year and he is the prototypical sixth man.

I don’t think Kelly is worth more than Chicken Wing a Williams.

George Hill is the 6th man for the Bucks. Makes $8M.

Toronto only has 4 players making more than $10M.

Lakers have 3.

Rockets have 4.

Winning teams pay their best players handsomely and understand the rest can be done by signing value role players and drafting appropriately to fit their identity.

Mediocre teams get stuck in mediocrity by overpaying role players.

We have Booker getting a max deal.
Rubio is paid too much for what he does.
Oubre is paid too much for the role we want him to play.
I would assume Ayton is headed towards a deal north of $20M and he’s going to get it.
I would love FVV at 20-25.
Bridges is headed towards an extension as well.

Booker
Ayton
FVV
Bridges

To me that would be your core, and you need enough money to fill out your team appropriately beyond that. Locking Kelly in to a long term deal when more important pieces are coming up on extensions is a losing strategy.

[Cap]

There's no point in having Rubio and FVV on the roster at the same time. Creates an unnecessary logjam. Move Rubio and go all in with FVV or leave it alone and spend money on the rest of the roster.

Except it doesn’t. A 3 guard rotation of Booker/FVV/Rubio is no logjam. Do we not realize how bad our backup guard situation has been? You know we don’t have to bring a g league level guy off the bench? It’s ok to have a starter quality guy come off the bench, that’s how you have a good bench.

That's a championship caliber backcourt right there IF either FVV or Rubio wouldn't mind coming off the bench. How many other holes would there be, though?

Honestly I think that’s an Ayton developing into a star away from contending.

FVV/Booker/Bridges/Johnson/Ayton can be the starting lineup of a contender if Bridges/Johnson continue their development path and Ayton turns into a star. They can all defend(except maybe Booker) and they can all shoot(except maybe Ayton). Add a bench with Rubio/Saric as the backbone. Plus whatever we draft this year and who we sign with the room MLE. Playoff team next year and could build into a contender. Would be a no brainer move for me.

FVV would be the oldest player in that lineup. It would be interesting if we could keep a group like that together for a number of years as they grow into their primes.

[Shabazz]

There's no point in having Rubio and FVV on the roster at the same time. Creates an unnecessary logjam. Move Rubio and go all in with FVV or leave it alone and spend money on the rest of the roster.

Except it doesn’t. A 3 guard rotation of Booker/FVV/Rubio is no logjam. Do we not realize how bad our backup guard situation has been? You know we don’t have to bring a g league level guy off the bench? It’s ok to have a starter quality guy come off the bench, that’s how you have a good bench.

It really does tho and it's some shit McD's done in the past. Just because the backup PG situation has been bad in the past doesn't mean it'll be bad going forward and doesn't mean you take a starter like Rubio and throw him on the bench. There's chemistry and team dynamic to take into account. It's not as easy as saying "this guy is good and available so let's bring him in and we'll automatically be better".

FWIW, I think this is all moot anyway. We'll either make trades to clear the roster for FVV or we won't sign him and probably never had a shot or even entertained it. Unless he or his agent are hinting that he wants to play here, he's not coming here. Some team will offer him $22+, if not a deal starting at $25.

He makes a lot of sense for your Knicks.

[djy2j]

I guess I just don’t see any realistic way of unloading Rubio. Other teams just don’t see him as being worth the 17 mil and don’t want that to eat up cap space. So therefore I’m not sure how we’d be getting FVV.

[ShelC]

I'd let the Knicks sign FVV to 25mil, he'll look like trash for a year, then we can flip Rubio for him and the Knicks 1st when they want to dump the contract.

[Split T]

I guess I just don’t see any realistic way of unloading Rubio. Other teams just don’t see him as being worth the 17 mil and don’t want that to eat up cap space. So therefore I’m not sure how we’d be getting FVV.

Unloading Oubre frees up the space

[Indy]

I guess I just don’t see any realistic way of unloading Rubio. Other teams just don’t see him as being worth the 17 mil and don’t want that to eat up cap space. So therefore I’m not sure how we’d be getting FVV.

Unloading Oubre frees up the space

I agree it looks like Oubre is our most valuable asset we can part with, I am not sure that move (in isolation) makes us better. What would be the other moves we can make after we spend all of that on him without trading Rubio?

[In2ition]

I'd let the Knicks sign FVV to 25mil, he'll look like trash for a year, then we can flip Rubio for him and the Knicks 1st when they want to dump the contract.

No offense, but this doesn't sound like an airtight plan.

[Split T]

You can’t have two players making a combined $32M coming off the bench. That’s silly and is going to cash strap you filling the rest of your roster.

I also have no interest in paying Oubre more than $10-12M per as a sixth man, and I agree a team will throw $20M at him. You cannot afford to see your best trade asset walk away without anything in return. Now is the best time to trade him while you can get something valuable in return to balance out your roster.

The MLE is over 10M. A 6th man on a good team (unless he is on a rookie contract) is going to command more than 10-12M.

No, it’s not. It’s projected to be $9.7M next season and that’s before COVID changes everything. Lou Williams makes $8M/year and he is the prototypical sixth man.

I don’t think Kelly is worth more than Chicken Wing a Williams.

George Hill is the 6th man for the Bucks. Makes $8M.

Toronto only has 4 players making more than $10M.

Lakers have 3.

Rockets have 4.

Winning teams pay their best players handsomely and understand the rest can be done by signing value role players and drafting appropriately to fit their identity.

Mediocre teams get stuck in mediocrity by overpaying role players.

We have Booker getting a max deal.
Rubio is paid too much for what he does.
Oubre is paid too much for the role we want him to play.
I would assume Ayton is headed towards a deal north of $20M and he’s going to get it.
I would love FVV at 20-25.
Bridges is headed towards an extension as well.

Booker
Ayton
FVV
Bridges

To me that would be your core, and you need enough money to fill out your team appropriately beyond that. Locking Kelly in to a long term deal when more important pieces are coming up on extensions is a losing strategy.

Pretty solid post. It’s hard to build a deep rotation if you’re paying your 5th and 6th guys 15+ million