Around the League: Offseason

[Split T]

Jimmy can turn it on, I have no problem with his ranking. If he’s not a top 15 guy, you’ve got to move other people up. So if you move Jimmy, Embiid, and Simmons, are you comfortable with Booker, Mitchell, and Zion being top 15 guys? I think the former have as much or more of a case for top 15.

I understand the Embiid concerns, but he’s a legitimate mvp level guy when he’s got it turned on. Those other 3 can’t say that yet. Butler just went toe for toe with Lebron. Simmons has his issues, but he’s also a top 5 defensive player in the nba.

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

That was kinda my point about Zion, he’s 19 on this list, if you’re pulling Simmons, Butler, and Embiid out of the top 15, it’s putting Zion in. I agree he has no business in the top 15.

I’m curious who your 15 would be?

I think we know Saucy's top 15 list.
1) Kelly Oubre Jr as water
2) Kelly Oubre Jr doing push ups
3) Kelly Oubre Jr head bobbing
4) Kelly Oubre Jr wearing stirrups
5-15) Who cares?!? Didn't you see 1-4?

Lol I thought you’re too busy to drink, get back to work.

In no particular order:

Lebron
Giannis
AD
KD
Steph
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Dame
Harden
Kawhi
Jokic
Luka
KAT
Trae

Solid, Trae is my only questionable one on there. He’s just so bad defensively and hasn’t shown the ability to share the offensive load with others yet. KAT is so elite offensively that I think he can be considered top 15, even though his defense is also very subpar.

[Split T]

Based on my model of players with more than 1000 minutes last year, here's the top 20 players, 1 to 20.

Giannis Antetokounmpo
LeBron James
James Harden
Nikola Jokic
Kawhi Leonard
Luka Doncic
Joel Embiid
Chris Paul
Damian Lillard
Anthony Davis
Karl-Anthony Towns
Christian Wood
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Russell Westbrook
Kyle Lowry
Jayson Tatum
Montrezl Harrell
Hassan Whiteside

Your model seems to do a pretty good job. Just a few outliers like Whiteside and Harrell. Is Wood an outlier or is it a sign of big things to come?

[specialsauce]

Zion hasn’t achieved anything in this league yet except for a dozen games. No way you can make any declarations about him. But no freaking way Booker and Mitchell are not better or more valuable right now than Simmons Embiid and Butler. Total joke. Butler is totally riding high off the bubble even though as others said the Heat as a team were good it was not Butler.

That was kinda my point about Zion, he’s 19 on this list, if you’re pulling Simmons, Butler, and Embiid out of the top 15, it’s putting Zion in. I agree he has no business in the top 15.

I’m curious who your 15 would be?

I think we know Saucy's top 15 list.
1) Kelly Oubre Jr as water
2) Kelly Oubre Jr doing push ups
3) Kelly Oubre Jr head bobbing
4) Kelly Oubre Jr wearing stirrups
5-15) Who cares?!? Didn't you see 1-4?

Lol I thought you’re too busy to drink, get back to work.

In no particular order:

Lebron
Giannis
AD
KD
Steph
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Dame
Harden
Kawhi
Jokic
Luka
KAT
Trae

Solid, Trae is my only questionable one on there. He’s just so bad defensively and hasn’t shown the ability to share the offensive load with others yet. KAT is so elite offensively that I think he can be considered top 15, even though his defense is also very subpar.

Thanks, I was stretching on Trae but hard for me to ignore him going for almost 30 and 10 last year.

[Split T]

That was kinda my point about Zion, he’s 19 on this list, if you’re pulling Simmons, Butler, and Embiid out of the top 15, it’s putting Zion in. I agree he has no business in the top 15.

I’m curious who your 15 would be?

I think we know Saucy's top 15 list.
1) Kelly Oubre Jr as water
2) Kelly Oubre Jr doing push ups
3) Kelly Oubre Jr head bobbing
4) Kelly Oubre Jr wearing stirrups
5-15) Who cares?!? Didn't you see 1-4?

Lol I thought you’re too busy to drink, get back to work.

In no particular order:

Lebron
Giannis
AD
KD
Steph
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Dame
Harden
Kawhi
Jokic
Luka
KAT
Trae

Solid, Trae is my only questionable one on there. He’s just so bad defensively and hasn’t shown the ability to share the offensive load with others yet. KAT is so elite offensively that I think he can be considered top 15, even though his defense is also very subpar.

Thanks, I was stretching on Trae but hard for me to ignore him going for almost 30 and 10 last year.

Ya that’s fair. This year is going to be really interesting for him. Atlanta added some other playmakers, if he can learn to play off ball(kinda like Curry in GS) at times, he could be even more difficult to defend. Also, they added some defenders, if they can help hide Trae, he may be in for a big year.

[ShelC]

[Split T]

[Split T]

I’ve always been a Paul George fan/defender, but that’s a lot of money going into his mid 30’s

[djy2j]

George is a pretender and a phony. He finesses his agenda on to the detriment of his team. He's a decent player but he's a mental midget. I think the league is figuring him out.

[ShelC]

He's a roleplayer, at best a #2 on a playoff team. Problem is that so is Kawhi who's even more overrated.

[Split T]

He’s a #2, but he’s an elite #2. He’s worth the max contract right now. We’re talking about a guy who went 28/8/4 and shot 40% from 3 on 10 attempts in 2019. Not to mention he’s a 6’8 elite wing defender. His bubble performance was bad, I won’t argue otherwise, but it’s skewed people’s opinion of him.

I still just think spending 40 million a year on a guy into his mid 30’s is tough. Of course we’re doing that with CP3 right now. The thing is, PG is a versatile defender, he shoots, and he doesn’t require a lot of on ball touches. He’s a pretty seamless fit into any team. So I think he’ll maintain trade value.

Shel is right though that the Clippers kinda have two #2’s. Their overall talent level is that of #1 guys, but it’s hard to be a #1 guy and not be a playmaker for your teammates. Clippers really needed someone they could give the ball to and run the offense for stretches. Just isolating Kawhi and PG doesn’t get other people involved.

Kawhi was definitely the best player on that Raptors team, but Lowry/FVV were maybe more crucial to the success.

[Split T]

Here’s an interesting thing and gives some credibility to the Butler is not top 15 crowd. One of these guys is Jimmy Butler and the other was ranked 82 in the ESPN rank, can you tell them apart?

23/6/6 and shot 53/26/85 for a .603 TS
21/7/6 and shot 46/24/83 for a .585 TS

Think the guy at 82 is criminally under ranked, but crazy to see that big of a gap. I will state that Butler is definitely the better defender of the two.

If you want to know who the other guy is:

Spoiler: show/hide

DeMar Derozan and he’s the top stat line.

[specialsauce]

So glad the Clippers are tied down to George for 5 years. It will solidify their mediocrity.

[ShelC]

Butler is mostly based on rep because of his attitude and perceived toughnesss. Conversely, DeMar's underrated because of his rep just the same. Maybe if he scowled and played angrier, people would respect him more.

PG's been overrated since Indy. Played on good teams with good players but folds in crunchtime. Very good talent, but I'd have a hard time paying an "elite" #2 that money when I could probably find someone who can fill the role as well, maybe not statistically but similarly on the court, and pay them much less. Kawhi benefitted from getting drafted to a veteran Spurs that was knew how to and was ready to win. He put them over the top. Same for the Raptors, who also benefitted from the W's injuries in the postseason. He's been very fortunate thus far in his career.

[Split T]

Butler is mostly based on rep because of his attitude and perceived toughnesss. Conversely, DeMar's underrated because of his rep just the same. Maybe if he scowled and played angrier, people would respect him more.

PG's been overrated since Indy. Played on good teams with good players but folds in crunchtime. Very good talent, but I'd have a hard time paying an "elite" #2 that money when I could probably find someone who can fill the role as well, maybe not statistically but similarly on the court, and pay them much less. Kawhi benefitted from getting drafted to a veteran Spurs that was knew how to and was ready to win. He put them over the top. Same for the Raptors, who also benefitted from the W's injuries in the postseason. He's been very fortunate thus far in his career.

I’m curious who you’d pick to replace Paul that would fill the role?

And I think Butler got a huge bubble boost. Pre Covid I don’t think he’d be top 20

[ShelC]

Paul George? Off of a guy like Kawhi? I would've tried to trade George for Westbrook, Wall or Harden. Like you said, the Clips and PG/Kawhi need a ballhandler. I just don't like the two SF look and am lukewarm to franchise SFs in general short of LeBron or KD.

[Split T]

Just meant in theory who would you replace him with that could fill the same role for much cheaper. Like do you think the Clippers are much different if they have Covington instead of PG?

I’d assume at that point the idea would be to spend the saved money to find a real pg. Depending on who you get, that could make sense.

[ShelC]

Mikal Bridges.

[Wormwood]

Based on my model of players with more than 1000 minutes last year, here's the top 20 players, 1 to 20.

Giannis Antetokounmpo
LeBron James
James Harden
Nikola Jokic
Kawhi Leonard
Luka Doncic
Joel Embiid
Chris Paul
Damian Lillard
Anthony Davis
Karl-Anthony Towns
Christian Wood
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Russell Westbrook
Kyle Lowry
Jayson Tatum
Montrezl Harrell
Hassan Whiteside

Your model seems to do a pretty good job. Just a few outliers like Whiteside and Harrell. Is Wood an outlier or is it a sign of big things to come?

It's why I was screaming all summer to pursue woods. The stats say he's been playing like a God at both ends of the court, and the SUns PFs?

Barf. Saric and Crowder are both pretty bad when looking at it mathematically.

[specialsauce]

Based on my model of players with more than 1000 minutes last year, here's the top 20 players, 1 to 20.

Giannis Antetokounmpo
LeBron James
James Harden
Nikola Jokic
Kawhi Leonard
Luka Doncic
Joel Embiid
Chris Paul
Damian Lillard
Anthony Davis
Karl-Anthony Towns
Christian Wood
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Khris Middleton
Russell Westbrook
Kyle Lowry
Jayson Tatum
Montrezl Harrell
Hassan Whiteside

Your model seems to do a pretty good job. Just a few outliers like Whiteside and Harrell. Is Wood an outlier or is it a sign of big things to come?

It's why I was screaming all summer to pursue woods. The stats say he's been playing like a God at both ends of the court, and the SUns PFs?

Barf. Saric and Crowder are both pretty bad when looking at it mathematically.

Hassan Whiteside is proof this needs tweaking

[Superbone]

I’ve always been a Paul George fan/defender, but that’s a lot of money going into his mid 30’s

And for a guy who's playoff performances are dubious.