Suns 2022 Off-Season Thread

[AmareIsGod]

…If only DA had Dirk’s step back or could KG’s tenacity or Hakeem’s dream shake or Duncan’s fundamentals or Shaq’s dominance in the paint or Amare’s hands diving in the paint or Dikembe’s shot blocking or AI’s crossover or Jordan’s turnaround…
We could do this all day.

Ayton is either a more athletic Ewing (or a less focused Mourning?) in a 90s offense or a top 5 center, defensive specialist, and efficient scorer who sucks in the defense into the paint during the regular season, when healthy AND dialed in.

Not good enough. He needs to be a combination of all of the greatest centers that have ever played the game if he's going to get paid what he "thinks" he deserves.

[AmareIsGod]

…If only DA had Dirk’s step back or could KG’s tenacity or Hakeem’s dream shake or Duncan’s fundamentals or Shaq’s dominance in the paint or Amare’s hands diving in the paint or Dikembe’s shot blocking or AI’s crossover or Jordan’s turnaround…
We could do this all day.

Ayton is either a more athletic Ewing in a 90s offense or a top 5 center, defensive specialist, and efficient scorer who sucks in the defense into the paint during the regular season, when healthy AND dialed in.

More like a contact averse Ewing. Ewing averaged between 6-8 free throws a game in 13 of his first 14 years. And was at 5.8 the year he didn’t. Ayton hasn’t made it to 3 yet and he’s going backwards.

Ewing had two seasons where he shot more free throws than Ayton had in 4 years.

Ayton is the love child of Ewing and Marion, with a fluidity and bounciness that Ewing lacked, but lacking some of the pure power. Ewing didn't have DA's automatic jump hook, either. The only challenge is to get Ayton to take it 15 times a game.

All of these asks that people have for Ayton to do so he can get max dollars and stay on the team would only infuriate his teammates. Imagine Booker and CP3 as well as others not getting "theirs" while Ayton operates and takes 15 hook shots a game. Imagine Ayton trying to work on dribbling and creating his own offense? We already see how some of the alphas on the team ride his ass when he doesn't do enough or makes a mistake. The 23-year old has much to improve but at the expense of the other star players, those progressions may not be a possibility with the Suns.

[AmareIsGod]

Ayton is getting a lot of grief in this thread. And look, he's no angel; there's no Halo above his head. But whenever we have asked him to produce, he always answers the Call of Duty. I don't have a Portal into his mind, and I know he can really Madden us with his lack of focus. But from the first to The Last of Us, I think we can all agree that he's got talent, even though he doesn't have a lot of WoW plays. His effort out there seems partly dead, but even his Half Life is better than many other centers' full effort. He's not a true classical big man, but these days the NBA is something of a Little Big Planet where shooting centers are more common. We could tell him to bulk up, but I worry about whether the extra Mass Effect would make him slower on defense. Even though our season is Over,Watch the Finals to see how we should have used Ayton. If we trade him for spare parts, we'll be in Uncharted territory as a franchise. Some of you seem to think you have a Golden Eye for spotting good trades, but I'm skeptical; a lot of these trade proposals seem Unreal to me. Some of you must have Dark Souls to suggest some of these moves; I don't think our cap situation is a Crysis. I think we should just sign him to the max, though we don't want to overpay our backup PG and Max Payne. If we keep our core together, we'll be the Perfect Dark horse contender next season. Losing Ayton would be like an earth Quake to the city of Phoenix. You just don't mess Witcher team when you're this close to the title.

OMG this is amazing. I hope you have little kids.

[Split T]

…If only DA had Dirk’s step back or could KG’s tenacity or Hakeem’s dream shake or Duncan’s fundamentals or Shaq’s dominance in the paint or Amare’s hands diving in the paint or Dikembe’s shot blocking or AI’s crossover or Jordan’s turnaround…
We could do this all day.

Ayton is either a more athletic Ewing in a 90s offense or a top 5 center, defensive specialist, and efficient scorer who sucks in the defense into the paint during the regular season, when healthy AND dialed in.

More like a contact averse Ewing. Ewing averaged between 6-8 free throws a game in 13 of his first 14 years. And was at 5.8 the year he didn’t. Ayton hasn’t made it to 3 yet and he’s going backwards.

Ewing had two seasons where he shot more free throws than Ayton had in 4 years.

Ayton is the love child of Ewing and Marion, with a fluidity and bounciness that Ewing lacked, but lacking some of the pure power. Ewing didn't have DA's automatic jump hook, either. The only challenge is to get Ayton to take it 15 times a game.

All of these asks that people have for Ayton to do so he can get max dollars and stay on the team would only infuriate his teammates. Imagine Booker and CP3 as well as others not getting "theirs" while Ayton operates and takes 15 hook shots a game. Imagine Ayton trying to work on dribbling and creating his own offense? We already see how some of the alphas on the team ride his ass when he doesn't do enough or makes a mistake. The 23-year old has much to improve but at the expense of the other star players, those progressions may not be a possibility with the Suns.

Didn’t Ayton make a play off the dribble once and Booker responded he’s been telling Ayton for 3 years to do that or something? I think everyone wanted DA to be more aggressive. It’s just not him.

[Drewsprocket]

How many times have we all seen Ayton well defended by a little and have to give up the rock at the elbow or on the perimeter?
If only he were a little better with the ball or CP3 younger, I bet we would max him. Hell we still might if the options aren’t there.
If it comes to matching a signed offer, I hope the Suns bring in someone who will continue to unlock Ayton.

[specialsauce]

It’s very simple, rather we need to find a sequence of moves that lead to DA leaving and a superior youngish (not Lebron) talent returning, or we need to match whatever he gets on the open market.

We cannot lose him for role players or aging vets that will leave us with a talent gap in 2 years when Booker, Bridges are in their prime.

I don’t think going full win-now mode with an aging CP3 is a wise move because you will be completely reliant on players that have not been able to stay healthy surviving a grueling playoff run. Odds are we fall short in the short-term and it devastates our long term outlook.

I would prefer a player that improves our odds of winning now and in 3-4 years. If we can’t get to that point, we’re better off keeping DA as he has proven he can be elite talent when motivated unlike the role players being rumored to be involved in trades for him.

[TOO]

It’s very simple, rather we need to find a sequence of moves that lead to DA leaving and a superior youngish (not Lebron) talent returning, or we need to match whatever he gets on the open market.

We cannot lose him for role players or aging vets that will leave us with a talent gap in 2 years when Booker, Bridges are in their prime.

I don’t think going full win-now mode with an aging CP3 is a wise move because you will be completely reliant on players that have not been able to stay healthy surviving a grueling playoff run. Odds are we fall short in the short-term and it devastates our long term outlook.

I would prefer a player that improves our odds of winning now and in 3-4 years. If we can’t get to that point, we’re better off keeping DA as he has proven he can be elite talent when motivated unlike the role players being rumored to be involved in trades for him.

HOW DO YOU MOTIVATE HIM? Thats the problem.

[specialsauce]

It’s very simple, rather we need to find a sequence of moves that lead to DA leaving and a superior youngish (not Lebron) talent returning, or we need to match whatever he gets on the open market.

We cannot lose him for role players or aging vets that will leave us with a talent gap in 2 years when Booker, Bridges are in their prime.

I don’t think going full win-now mode with an aging CP3 is a wise move because you will be completely reliant on players that have not been able to stay healthy surviving a grueling playoff run. Odds are we fall short in the short-term and it devastates our long term outlook.

I would prefer a player that improves our odds of winning now and in 3-4 years. If we can’t get to that point, we’re better off keeping DA as he has proven he can be elite talent when motivated unlike the role players being rumored to be involved in trades for him.

HOW DO YOU MOTIVATE HIM? Thats the problem.

It doesn’t matter. Point is that his ceiling is higher and has potential to lift this team to the finals like he did last year. Poetll no matter what he does will never be effective to that level. So if the goal is to win a ship, that’s that.

[Split T]

But what if you think(or know) you can acquire another star alongside Booker/Paul without Ayton. Does that change how you approach a potential Ayton trade?

We’re also sort of at the mercy of Ayton. If he says he’s not cooperating in a sign and trade, there’s not much we can do. Either try to sign and trade him to his preferred destination, or let him sign an offer sheet and match it.

[Split T]

Where do people fall on the trade Ayton spectrum from 0-10

0 is he’s untouchable and you wouldn’t listen to trade talk

1 is you’d only trade him if it returned you a superstar and it didn’t cost you extra assets(think KD for Ayton and contracts)

2-3 is you’d need another star or borderline star coming back(like KAT, Siakam, Beal, etc.) or a superstar coming back but you’d include other assets(Mikal, Cam, picks)

4-6 is you’d take a slightly lesser player that might fit better and raise the floor but lowers the overall ceiling of the team…think Sabonis.

7-8 is you’d just take whatever collection of assets you can get from his preferred destination but you’d just match if they don’t include enough…think Poeltl, Vassell, and 9 or Grant and #5, etc.

9 is you just take what you can get as you’re not willing to match a max offer. Think Poeltl and the 20th pick or Stewart and a future 1st

10 is you want nothing to do with him and wouldn’t even bother extending a QO, just rescind his rights and let him walk.

I think I’m personally a 7. I obviously would try for the star players first, but if it came down to it, I’d take a collection of assets as long as I felt pretty good about at least 2 of them. Poeltl, Vassell, and #9 is about the worst offer I’d consider. If Vassell or #9 weren’t included, I’d just tell them no thanks, just sign him and we’ll match.

Likewise, I don’t think I’d accept an offer from say Detroit or Indy without #5 or #6 included. Toronto would have to offer up OG and at least a 1st.

I wouldn’t hold out for the Siakam/KAT/KD offers though. I think it’s risky to bring Ayton back after everything that’s happened and giving him a max deal. He’ll be looked at in a different light and if he’s not as motivated or committed to the team, I worry about his play on the court and how that would impact his value.

I’d play it out and hope we can get a better offer as I honestly doubt anyone signs him to an offer sheet(too risky as I’m sure we’ll make it known we’re matching) and hopefully once the cap space drys up, we’ll have more leverage.

9 is

[Mori Chu]

On your list, Split, I'd probably say I'm in the 2-3 camp. I'd trade him if it gave us a big star back and made us as good or better. But I don't like most of the ideas and deals being floated around, so I tend to lean toward keeping him. I think if I could get a KD or KAT or similar back, I would likely go for it. But I don't really like the idea of Beal and I'm lukewarm on Siakam.

One thing I want to mention is, folks have made the point that a lot of the teams with great big men are now already out of the playoffs: Denver, Philly, Milwaukee. But when you look at the teams that are left, they both have something in common, which is that they built their cores and then kept them together over several years to grow and improve together. They may rotate in pieces around them, but the main guys have been together a while to grow and get good chemistry. Even several of their bench pieces (Iguodala, Looney, Horford) are guys who have been there in the past or been there a long time. I think a lot of folks underestimate the intangible value of continuity and familiarity. If you re-sign Ayton, tweak this team around the edges, and basically run it back, it is going to be a very good team that would likely be a title contender. I don't know why you wouldn't want to go for that.

[SunsRIt]

11. Only trade Ayton if he says he insists on being traded. Otherwise, match the max offer he receives and continue with him. He has improved his offense every year. A hook and a deadly jumper out to 15 feet. Everybody says Kal is the best defender, but Ayton is the anchor of our defense. People get passed the perimeter defender and go the other way when they see Ayton at the rim. If you don’t want issues with him guarding the 3 then don’t switch. I didn’t see Kal even slow down Luka and he is supposed to be able to guard 1-4. That sure don’t happen against Dallas.

I hate to say it, but I think the Chris Paul window is closed. If you bring in somebody else or keep Ayton I don’t think Chris Paul is leading this team to a title. He has broken down in the playoffs the last 2 years.

[Split T]

Ya I understand that mindset Mori and I don’t think it’s wrong…certainly it might be the best course of action. Maybe I’m just too intrigued by change. We just got beat so badly that it feels like we can’t just run it back.

[Split T]

11. Only trade Ayton if he says he insists on being traded. Otherwise, match the max offer he receives and continue with him. He has improved his offense every year. A hook and a deadly jumper out to 15 feet. Everybody says Kal is the best defender, but Ayton is the anchor of our defense. People get passed the perimeter defender and go the other way when they see Ayton at the rim. If you don’t want issues with him guarding the 3 then don’t switch. I didn’t see Kal even slow down Luka and he is supposed to be able to guard 1-4. That sure don’t happen against Dallas.

I hate to say it, but I think the Chris Paul window is closed. If you bring in somebody else or keep Ayton I don’t think Chris Paul is leading this team to a title. He has broken down in the playoffs the last 2 years.

You went the wrong way, in your scenario it’d be more like a 0 or 1

[SunsRIt]

Ya I understand that mindset and I don’t think it’s wrong…certainly it might be the best course of action. Maybe I’m just too intrigued by change. We just got beat so badly that it feels like we can’t just run it back.

I really want to know what happened leading up to game 7 with Dallas. It was like none of the players(or coach) liked each other. They scored 27 points in the first half of an elimination game! Something happened. I wonder if we will ever know the truth.

[SunsRIt]

I think the reason the league has gone away from the “big man game” is that they are so few quality big men in the league. 7 foot centers don’t just grow on trees.

It’s at least a contributing factor.

[Split T]

Ya I understand that mindset and I don’t think it’s wrong…certainly it might be the best course of action. Maybe I’m just too intrigued by change. We just got beat so badly that it feels like we can’t just run it back.

I really want to know what happened leading up to game 7 with Dallas. It was like none of the players(or coach) liked each other. They scored 27 points in the first half of an elimination game! Something happened. I wonder if we will ever know the truth.

Ya I hope we find out…just wasn’t the team we watched all year

[Flagrant Fowl]

I think the reason the league has gone away from the “big man game” is that they are so few quality big men in the league. 7 foot centers don’t just grow on trees.

It’s at least a contributing factor.

7-foot Centers who can play like a Guard don't grow on trees, but 7-foot Centers who're efficient, rebound, and protect the rim are not at all hard to find.

[AmareIsGod]

I'm probably a 3. A 7 is a pretty bad take if you ask me Split. If you reverse you're logic, on a scale of 1 to 10 in how you view his skills as a center, you're basically saying he's a 3.

[Shabazz]

…If only DA had Dirk’s step back or could KG’s tenacity or Hakeem’s dream shake or Duncan’s fundamentals or Shaq’s dominance in the paint or Amare’s hands diving in the paint or Dikembe’s shot blocking or AI’s crossover or Jordan’s turnaround…
We could do this all day.

Ayton is either a more athletic Ewing in a 90s offense or a top 5 center, defensive specialist, and efficient scorer who sucks in the defense into the paint during the regular season, when healthy AND dialed in.

More like a contact averse Ewing. Ewing averaged between 6-8 free throws a game in 13 of his first 14 years. And was at 5.8 the year he didn’t. Ayton hasn’t made it to 3 yet and he’s going backwards.

Ewing had two seasons where he shot more free throws than Ayton had in 4 years.

Ayton is the love child of Ewing and Marion, with a fluidity and bounciness that Ewing lacked, but lacking some of the pure power. Ewing didn't have DA's automatic jump hook, either. The only challenge is to get Ayton to take it 15 times a game.

Ewing also averaged 3.5 blocks and 1.5 steals in his 4th season. Ayton was at .7 and .7. I know blocks and steals are not a great measure of defense on their own, but that's a pretty significant difference.