Deandre Ayton's future with the Suns?

[Split T]

Sure, but that’s because they are much more important to the team. I don’t know what was going on with CP3, he wasn’t remotely the CP3 we saw in NO. Was he hurt or was he just worn out? His flip doesn’t make sense because he’s shown to be a reliable player for us in his 2 years. There was nothing unusual about Ayton being awesome against NO and then meh against Dallas. That’s kind of the point, that’s who Ayton is. Great at times, invisible at others. We excuse CP3 because that performance was very unordinary for him.

As for Monty, I’m not sure what happened there. It’s the first time I’ve seen him seem unable to adjust. He didn’t try anything…just kept rolling with what was clearly a problematic strategy. The only thing I can think of is it was pride. He just stuck with what he’d done all year and didn’t want to admit he’d been beat.

See Mori was right, you're saying that half the time he's trash. Because "trash" is what I would call CP3's series and you seemed to be putting them on comparable levels in that series. I think that Ayton had a much better series than CP3 did.

I said nothing about them being comparable. It’s also funny to me because if Ayton had put up 55/48/92 shooting splits in the series, you definitely wouldn’t have called him trash. You’d say well why didn’t we get him more shots? It’s our fault for not getting him the ball more.

But the reason he had a bad series is because he couldn’t make things happen. He couldn’t, or wouldn’t, get to his spots and take shots. He was weirdly passive. For a moment we saw CP3 unable to be a creator. It’s the same reason many of us have issues with Ayton. His inability to be a creator means he’s gonna have games where he gets 6 shots and scores 8 points. He can’t impose his will on the game whenever he wants.

So it’s funny to me that CP3 turned into a highly efficient, but passive offensive player and you called him trash. It at least shows me you understand the massively different role CP3 plays for us. Do you just not see it as important?

Why are you comparing a point guard with a center? Chris Paul has the ball in his hands constantly. The Mavs were even leaving him open at three point range daring him to shoot. He just refused to shoot. Of course it's his fault he didn't get more shots.

But even with his lack of scoring I wouldn't call his series trash if he was getting like 15 assists a game and creating for others the way he normally does. He wasn't even doing that.

Bottom line, of course a point guard and center will typically have "massively different roles." You don't need your center to be a creator. You definitely need your point guard to be a creator. Apples and oranges.

I was curious how you felt about it and I think it maybe shows why we have different opinions. I try not to look at positions at all. CP3’s role isn’t point guard to me, it’s primary initiator. I would also describe Jokic in the same way.

Ayton is not an initiator at all, he’s a screener and roller. Granted he’s one of the best ones in the league, I just see that role as one of the least important. I’d rank them as follows:

1. Primary initiator(CP3, Lillard, Jokic, Luka, etc.)
2. Secondary initiator(Booker, Curry, Embiid, etc.)

Then it gets a bit murky. You’ve got 3-D wings, rim runners, and floor spacers. I think the importance of them depends on how good they are at their respective jobs, but I just can’t see them ever being more important than initiators. So to me Ayton will always be in that next tier down.

[specialsauce]

You guys are all exhausting my God. Can KD and DA just hurry up and reach some finality

this is your most sensible post ever.

Lol. And round and round and round we go

[JeremyG]

Sure, but that’s because they are much more important to the team. I don’t know what was going on with CP3, he wasn’t remotely the CP3 we saw in NO. Was he hurt or was he just worn out? His flip doesn’t make sense because he’s shown to be a reliable player for us in his 2 years. There was nothing unusual about Ayton being awesome against NO and then meh against Dallas. That’s kind of the point, that’s who Ayton is. Great at times, invisible at others. We excuse CP3 because that performance was very unordinary for him.

As for Monty, I’m not sure what happened there. It’s the first time I’ve seen him seem unable to adjust. He didn’t try anything…just kept rolling with what was clearly a problematic strategy. The only thing I can think of is it was pride. He just stuck with what he’d done all year and didn’t want to admit he’d been beat.

See Mori was right, you're saying that half the time he's trash. Because "trash" is what I would call CP3's series and you seemed to be putting them on comparable levels in that series. I think that Ayton had a much better series than CP3 did.

I said nothing about them being comparable. It’s also funny to me because if Ayton had put up 55/48/92 shooting splits in the series, you definitely wouldn’t have called him trash. You’d say well why didn’t we get him more shots? It’s our fault for not getting him the ball more.

But the reason he had a bad series is because he couldn’t make things happen. He couldn’t, or wouldn’t, get to his spots and take shots. He was weirdly passive. For a moment we saw CP3 unable to be a creator. It’s the same reason many of us have issues with Ayton. His inability to be a creator means he’s gonna have games where he gets 6 shots and scores 8 points. He can’t impose his will on the game whenever he wants.

So it’s funny to me that CP3 turned into a highly efficient, but passive offensive player and you called him trash. It at least shows me you understand the massively different role CP3 plays for us. Do you just not see it as important?

Why are you comparing a point guard with a center? Chris Paul has the ball in his hands constantly. The Mavs were even leaving him open at three point range daring him to shoot. He just refused to shoot. Of course it's his fault he didn't get more shots.

But even with his lack of scoring I wouldn't call his series trash if he was getting like 15 assists a game and creating for others the way he normally does. He wasn't even doing that.

Bottom line, of course a point guard and center will typically have "massively different roles." You don't need your center to be a creator. You definitely need your point guard to be a creator. Apples and oranges.

I was curious how you felt about it and I think it maybe shows why we have different opinions. I try not to look at positions at all. CP3’s role isn’t point guard to me, it’s primary initiator. I would also describe Jokic in the same way.

Ayton is not an initiator at all, he’s a screener and roller. Granted he’s one of the best ones in the league, I just see that role as one of the least important. I’d rank them as follows:

1. Primary initiator(CP3, Lillard, Jokic, Luka, etc.)
2. Secondary initiator(Booker, Curry, Embiid, etc.)

Then it gets a bit murky. You’ve got 3-D wings, rim runners, and floor spacers. I think the importance of them depends on how good they are at their respective jobs, but I just can’t see them ever being more important than initiators. So to me Ayton will always be in that next tier down.

So where would you put someone like Anthony Davis?

[JeremyG]

[Flagrant Fowl]

The Pacers would still have to cut salary to outright offer Ayton a max contract.

[Split T]

You make a good point with AD, he’s really more like the ultimate combination of rim runner/floor spacer/3D wing. I do think he’s got some secondary initiator skills, but it’s not his real role. He does break my model a bit as at his peak he was more valuable than a lot of real initiators.

Though I will say I always maintained that he was a lesser player than Giannis even back before he started winning MVP’s. And it was because Giannis had the ability to create for himself at a much higher level than AD. I think it’s also interesting that AD never won much at all until he had the ultimate create everything player. I do think DA would do well in that setting too. Put him next to Luka and he is probably worth the max.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

LOL, I recently saw some else said “Go to hell idiot” but I’m the one calling personal stuff, good one Jeremy, but let’s take it from here then.

Minorities matter, but 31% percent is not enough to pass any kind of bill -as a Max Contract would be- and particularly, on a poll with a Yes or No choice on it, 31% is clearly being on the wrong side of it, on this cases it’s not sizable, it’s just plain wrong by a landslide. And to use your own style, you would run to point out that 937 IS NOT a thousand people, so you are plain wrong.

What about the paragraph about the market settling the max discussion? Theres was nothing personal on it, why did you leave it out of your response?

The minority is always wrong? That sounds like a dangerous approach to take. Besides, my point was not whether I am on the right side or wrong side, but whether there are others (unrelated to Deandre) that are on my side.

After Ayton signs a contract, I'll address the market discussion.

Funny way to backpedal things, you were pretty insisting about how the entire league was willing to max Ayton, once proved wrong, you are leaving it for later, hindsight in hand.

And about minorities, you are not even twisting my words, you are just plain ignoring it. I clearly said that in a two choice poll, 31% is not sizable because the winning choice is clear, and expanding it to a more functional elective system, 31% can sway some decisions, became the tipping point on a debate and bargain for influence above his size, but it lacks by itself the strength to impose it’s will.

That have nothing to do with being wrong, you put it out of nowhere here. But still, by the sake of discussing, an minority it’s not automatically wrong, I completely agree, but you have to concede as well, that is not in the right automatically either.

A minority galvanized by some sort of “we the few, are special because WE KNOW better than most” mentality is as dangerous as an overwhelming majority deaf to the few. It usually radicalize it’s members, forcing them to multiply their efforts in order to compensate the numbers. As an unrelated example, in a sports forum, it would be some poster taking a lot of time and energy to be on every discussion pushing his point of view, engaging on every discussion to avoid the irrelevance of the side he represents.

Radicalized minorities risk to became irrational and unwilling to concede, forcing the rest to stop taking them seriously.

What?? Lol.

Let's take a look at your post again:

Minorities matter, but 31% percent is not enough to pass any kind of bill -as a Max Contract would be- and particularly, on a poll with a Yes or No choice on it, 31% is clearly being on the wrong side of it, on this cases it’s not sizable, it’s just plain wrong by a landslide.

I did not make up "out of nowhere" you saying it meant "wrong." You clearly said "wrong" not once but twice.

What? I’m laughing as well, let’s do it one more time. Slow for you.

Wrong side of it, as in wrong side of the poll, meaning that you lost the voting, and losing it by a landslide. You read it wrong twice, or trying once again, to accommodate a tiny grasp of grammar to your narrative, but it’s ok, it just shows how desperate you are to salvage some face.

[JeremyG]

Whatever, dude. I just find it bewildering, albeit a bit amusing, that I can’t defend DA without being affiliated with him somehow, or a “radicalized minority.”

Just so everyone is clear, I have no direct affiliation with Deandre Ayton, I am a proud Sun Devil alumnus (Sports Business summa cum laude), and I hate UofA. But I don’t let that bias color reality. For example, I can’t stand the way James Harden plays (although I am, of course, proud that he is a highly successful Sun Devil). I don’t work for Bill Duffy (although James Jones has called me on the phone before ). I don’t work for DA in any capacity. My opinions are my own.

In fact, this is the one place where I feel like I can vent and make my true feelings known.

[Superbone]

Whatever, dude. I just find it bewildering, albeit a bit amusing, that I can’t defend DA without being affiliated with him somehow, or a “radicalized minority.”

Just so everyone is clear, I have no direct affiliation with Deandre Ayton, I am a proud Sun Devil alumnus (Sports Business summa cum laude), and I hate UofA. But I don’t let that bias color reality. For example, I can’t stand the way James Harden plays (although I am, of course, proud that he is a highly successful Sun Devil). I don’t work for Bill Duffy (although James Jones has called me on the phone before ). I don’t work for DA in any capacity. My opinions are my own.

In fact, this is the one place where I feel like I can vent and make my true feelings known.

Wait. I want to hear about the James Jones phone call. And do you currently work in sports business?

[Superbone]

[JeremyG]

Whatever, dude. I just find it bewildering, albeit a bit amusing, that I can’t defend DA without being affiliated with him somehow, or a “radicalized minority.”

Just so everyone is clear, I have no direct affiliation with Deandre Ayton, I am a proud Sun Devil alumnus (Sports Business summa cum laude), and I hate UofA. But I don’t let that bias color reality. For example, I can’t stand the way James Harden plays (although I am, of course, proud that he is a highly successful Sun Devil). I don’t work for Bill Duffy (although James Jones has called me on the phone before ). I don’t work for DA in any capacity. My opinions are my own.

In fact, this is the one place where I feel like I can vent and make my true feelings known.

Wait. I want to hear about the James Jones phone call. And do you currently work in sports business?

I don’t want to say too much, but I met him at a private event and he called me afterward. I may be tough on him at times, but that is just my Suns passion talking, I have nothing against the man personally. He is incredibly kind, down-to-earth, and generous with his time. I just strongly disagree with some of his actions.

[Superbone]

Whatever, dude. I just find it bewildering, albeit a bit amusing, that I can’t defend DA without being affiliated with him somehow, or a “radicalized minority.”

Just so everyone is clear, I have no direct affiliation with Deandre Ayton, I am a proud Sun Devil alumnus (Sports Business summa cum laude), and I hate UofA. But I don’t let that bias color reality. For example, I can’t stand the way James Harden plays (although I am, of course, proud that he is a highly successful Sun Devil). I don’t work for Bill Duffy (although James Jones has called me on the phone before ). I don’t work for DA in any capacity. My opinions are my own.

In fact, this is the one place where I feel like I can vent and make my true feelings known.

Wait. I want to hear about the James Jones phone call. And do you currently work in sports business?

I don’t want to say too much, but I met him at a private event and he called me afterward. I may be tough on him at times, but that is just my Suns passion talking, I have nothing against the man personally. He is incredibly kind, down-to-earth, and generous with his time. I just strongly disagree with some of his actions.

Very cool.

[Wally_West]

[Superbone]

Is something finally going to happen today? Is today the day? I'll be surprised if it's not a sign and trade.

[Indy]

Gambo was saying that Brogdon couldn't do his physical to make the trade official until today due to vacation/travel (although it did show up on the NBA transactions page on Saturday). So they might finally have close to enough money to offer DA something. But again, their owner has been really transparent about not wanting to offer RFAs anything without talking to the other owner first and working out a S&T.

[JeremyG]

If we’ve told them we’re not interested in Turner, they may just offer sheet him.

I doubt Ayton would want to go to Indiana for less than the max. So in order to get him, they’ll probably have to clear more space to get to max cap space.

If it was going to be a S&T then why wouldn’t it be done by now? Why would they need to wait for Brogdon?

[specialsauce]

Hope we turn up an asset other than Turner to flip to BKN.

Keep Turner, get a first round pick to flip to BKN, though idk we can make the $$ work with BKN without DA or the returning salary from the DA trade

[Split T]

Maybe we don’t want to take any salary back, just picks to send to Brooklyn so waiting for Indy to have the space.

We can make it work salary wise without Ayton, but we’d need to include at least 3 players. 4 if Mikal isn’t one of them.

[JeremyG]

[Split T]