Monty Williams

[Wally_West]

Also this thread was just a Trojan horse for another Ayton thread, while reason behind this thread about Monty should be fired cuz he doesn’t let Ayton cook and he’s mean to him.

[AmareIsGod]

I don’t think it’s fair to put this teams failure on Monty. It was thrown together at the deadline and then the main piece missed basically the rest of the season. I thought we’d gel quicker as well, but this roster isn’t good. It’s hard to blame for vet min guys not stepping up and playing significant roles. The bench is overmatched. He gets next year to figure it out for me.

4 points from your bench. Seems like a strong roster to me! Lots of depth Feels like more a James Jones issue than a Monty issue.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Replacing Monty is a bad idea this summer. Like Split said, he should have at least next season to figure things out with KD and Booker.

If they did decide to move on, I’d be interested in Frank Vogel and he’s the only realistic candidate that comes to mind.

[Superbone]

Even though Monty has his shortcomings, I think you would be hard pressed to find a better replacement. Honestly, I'd like to see Mike D'Antoni come back in some sort of role to support Monty. It just seems our offense is sputtering a bit and I think maybe moving Ayton to the PF spot and doing something there could be beneficial.

You had me until Ayton at PF.

[Superbone]

Replacing Monty is a bad idea this summer. Like Split said, he should have at least next season to figure things out with KD and Booker.

If they did decide to move on, I’d be interested in Frank Vogel and he’s the only realistic candidate that comes to mind.

Maybe it's just my frustration talking. Of course, he still has this series to prove himself. And you guys could be right that he didn't get the necessary support players.

[JeremyG]

Also this thread was just a Trojan horse for another Ayton thread, while reason behind this thread about Monty should be fired cuz he doesn’t let Ayton cook and he’s mean to him.

[JeremyG]

Wow. I’ve haven’t heard anyone (other than James & Monty) say that last season was anything other than a complete failure.

How is it not underachieving for a 64-win team to not make it out of the second round? And mainly due to abysmal coaching and being completely out-coached in both rounds.

Complete failure would be the Lakers…they still won 64 games and set the franchise record for wins. You don’t throw away a perfectly good coach over 5 bad games. Remember all the coaches we had before Monty…you want Igor or Watson back? Triano? Hornacek? Hunter? Gentry? Porter?

Monty is pretty easily a top 2 coach of the last 25 years for us.

Just because we had bottom-of-the-barrel coaches before--due to a cheap owner--means we should settle for anyone who's better than they were? That's not my bar. My bar is having a coach who knows how to best utitlize his players and who can coach in the playoffs--the most important time for coaching.

Where did I say anything about firing him over 5 bad games? I said I can see him getting fired if we have another underachieving season.

This is still the most important reason for firing Monty…he is just not a good postseason coach. I said before that he got outcoached in 4 of his 6 series the last two years…and now one of the coaches I didn’t include is out-coaching him!

You guys are crazy if you think my “Ayton blinders” is why I thought Monty was not the right coach and should only be given one more chance (2022-23). 90% of you have had “Monty blinders” on this whole time.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Monty outcoached Malone in Game 2.

[JeremyG]

[Split T]

I’m curious what makes you think Monty is being out-coached right now…it just feels like a cop-out. The players are getting beat, that’s it.

[JeremyG]

I’m curious what makes you think Monty is being out-coached right now…it just feels like a cop-out. The players are getting beat, that’s it.

Wow. So you guys are being serious. I don’t even know where to start!

1. Does he even coach anymore? Like seriously, does he even draw up anything during the game or even run plays. What happened to his highly acclaimed offensive system, where role players were supposed to thrive and any player could get an opportunity to go for 20 points on a given night? It’s all Booker and Durant just going 1 on 5 now. The offense is almost non-existent, and even more so without Paul, which I guess brings us to…

2. He had no backup plan for Paul going down with injury. Nothing creative, no adjustments, but he outcoached Malone while watching his team fall apart? Okay.

3. His timing/rotations have been atrocious this series. Some terrible lineups, and at the worst times too. Ish Wainwright? Seriously? And those second quarter lineups in general…ugh.

4. Not matching Ayton’s minutes with Jokic’s once again, then leaving him on the bench way too long with 4 fouls. Should have challenged the 4th foul also.

5. Speaking of Ayton, when he is shooting 70% and the rest of the team is shooting 36.5%, maybe you should run some plays for Ayton? Especially in the 4th quarter when we couldn’t score at all. He probably should have had more than 10 out of our 95 field goal attempts.

6. Yes he finally benched Shamet, but those game 1 minutes were terrible. And what we desperately needed in game 2 was offense (Ross or Warren).

These are just some things off the top of my head that I remember from a couple games I’ve tried to forget but if I went back and re-watched I’m sure I could give you a lot more.

[AmareIsGod]

I’m curious what makes you think Monty is being out-coached right now…it just feels like a cop-out. The players are getting beat, that’s it.

Wow. So you guys are being serious. I don’t even know where to start!

1. Does he even coach anymore? Like seriously, does he even draw up anything during the game or even run plays. What happened to his highly acclaimed offensive system, where role players were supposed to thrive and any player could get an opportunity to go for 20 points on a given night? It’s all Booker and Durant just going 1 on 5 now. The offense is almost non-existent, and even more so without Paul, which I guess brings us to…

2. He had no backup plan for Paul going down with injury. Nothing creative, no adjustments, but he outcoached Malone while watching his team fall apart? Okay.

3. His timing/rotations have been atrocious this series. Some terrible lineups, and at the worst times too. Ish Wainwright? Seriously? And those second quarter lineups in general…ugh.

4. Not matching Ayton’s minutes with Jokic’s once again, then leaving him on the bench way too long with 4 fouls. Should have challenged the 4th foul also.

5. Speaking of Ayton, when he is shooting 70% and the rest of the team is shooting 36.5%, maybe you should run some plays for Ayton? Especially in the 4th quarter when we couldn’t score at all. He probably should have had more than 10 out of our 95 field goal attempts.

6. Yes he finally benched Shamet, but those game 1 minutes were terrible. And what we desperately needed in game 2 was offense (Ross or Warren).

These are just some things off the top of my head that I remember from a couple games I’ve tried to forget but if I went back and re-watched I’m sure I could give you a lot more.

I do share a lot of these concerns. As crazy as it sounds for me to so strongly agree with you.

Don't forget the awkward beady-eyed squints with discomfort and concern, deep in thought, sitting on the bench sometimes when they show his face.

[Flagrant Fowl]

1. dOeS hE eVeN cOaCh?!?! ridiculous.

That's the dumbest shit I've read in a while and should almost entirely discredit any other point you put forward in the debate. But whatever...

2. The back up plan was to play the back up PG. He did that. Cam Payne isn't good so Booker became the de facto PG. Did you expect Booker to suddenly start playing like a floor general PG? Maybe bring in someone else who isn't a PG to play PG? Maybe dust off the "When Chris Paul is injured in the middle of a game we change the offense to this" plan. I'm sure that's a valuable use of limited practice time. You know what would've been great? If another highly paid player could create offense instead of having to go 2-on-5.

3. I don't understand these timing/rotations complaints. Do you want 4 of the starters to play all 48 minutes? Guys have to rest and the bench isn't good, so of course those lineups are going to struggle in the playoffs. And those two minutes for Ish Wainwright were just killer. Except they weren't.

4. Sure, match his minutes with Jokic so Ayton fouls out in under 30 minutes. Great idea.

5. Ayton could've surely had a few more shots. It would be nice if he didn't have to depend on everyone else (including Monty, who apparently doesn't run plays) to create them for him. Then again, do I want to watch Ayton take a contested 15-foot fadeaway or Booker/Durant try to break down the defense in crunch time? That's a pretty easy choice for almost everyone to make.

6. One of the best adjustments the Suns (Monty) made in game 2 was the defensive game plan and it was working very well. But you want to scrap it in favor of one of two guys who can't play defense instead of sticking with the guys (Craig/Lee/Okogie) who've put the team in a winning position? A bad coach would've lost faith in those guys ability to hit a shot, panicked by putting in a zero defense guy, and then looked dumb when the Nuggets torched him.

[AmareIsGod]

1. dOeS hE eVeN cOaCh?!?! ridiculous.

That's the dumbest shit I've read in a while and should almost entirely discredit any other point you put forward in the debate. But whatever...

2. The back up plan was to play the back up PG. He did that. Cam Payne isn't good so Booker became the de facto PG. Did you expect Booker to suddenly start playing like a floor general PG? Maybe bring in someone else who isn't a PG to play PG? Maybe dust off the "When Chris Paul is injured in the middle of a game we change the offense to this" plan. I'm sure that's a valuable use of limited practice time. You know what would've been great? If another highly paid player could create offense instead of having to go 2-on-5.

3. I don't understand these timing/rotations complaints. Do you want 4 of the starters to play all 48 minutes? Guys have to rest and the bench isn't good, so of course those lineups are going to struggle in the playoffs. And those two minutes for Ish Wainwright were just killer. Except they weren't.

4. Sure, match his minutes with Jokic so Ayton fouls out in under 30 minutes. Great idea.

5. Ayton could've surely had a few more shots. It would be nice if he didn't have to depend on everyone else (including Monty, who apparently doesn't run plays) to create them for him. Then again, do I want to watch Ayton take a contested 15-foot fadeaway or Booker/Durant try to break down the defense in crunch time? That's a pretty easy choice for almost everyone to make.

6. One of the best adjustments the Suns (Monty) made in game 2 was the defensive game plan and it was working very well. But you want to scrap it in favor of one of two guys who can't play defense instead of sticking with the guys (Craig/Lee/Okogie) who've put the team in a winning position? A bad coach would've lost faith in those guys ability to hit a shot, panicked by putting in a zero defense guy, and then looked dumb when the Nuggets torched him.

Great counter points. I'm going to go grab my popcorn.

[specialsauce]

Monty Williams is an average coach.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Of the 8 coaches remaining in the playoffs, how many would you unquestionably rather have instead of Monty?

I say two.

[JeremyG]

1. dOeS hE eVeN cOaCh?!?! ridiculous.

That's the dumbest shit I've read in a while and should almost entirely discredit any other point you put forward in the debate. But whatever...

I’ll take that as a no then, until proven otherwise.

2. The back up plan was to play the back up PG. He did that. Cam Payne isn't good so Booker became the de facto PG. Did you expect Booker to suddenly start playing like a floor general PG? Maybe bring in someone else who isn't a PG to play PG? Maybe dust off the "When Chris Paul is injured in the middle of a game we change the offense to this" plan. I'm sure that's a valuable use of limited practice time. You know what would've been great? If another highly paid player could create offense instead of having to go 2-on-5.

Lol, I didn’t mean come up with a floor general out of thin air. I meant find creative ways to generate offense since you didn’t have your floor general.

And if Durant is going to shoot that much even while struggling, how about running some plays to at least get him some better looks instead of those tough shots he was taking?

Re: the “highly paid player.” He can’t create offense if he never gets the ball. I lost count of how many times he had seals deep in the paint or on the low block.

3. I don't understand these timing/rotations complaints. Do you want 4 of the starters to play all 48 minutes? Guys have to rest and the bench isn't good, so of course those lineups are going to struggle in the playoffs. And those two minutes for Ish Wainwright were just killer. Except they weren't.

Straw man argument. I believe it was Eddie Johnson (could’ve been somebody else), that said before the playoffs started, that we should always have 2 of the big 4 on the court at the same time in the playoffs. (Of course this was before the CP3 injury.)

4. Sure, match his minutes with Jokic so Ayton fouls out in under 30 minutes. Great idea.

Fact: the majority of his fouls have not been committed against Jokic. I would much rather have him defending Jokic one-on-one than any of the alternatives.

5. Ayton could've surely had a few more shots. It would be nice if he didn't have to depend on everyone else (including Monty, who apparently doesn't run plays) to create them for him. Then again, do I want to watch Ayton take a contested 15-foot fadeaway or Booker/Durant try to break down the defense in crunch time? That's a pretty easy choice for almost everyone to make.

Except that’s not the choice. Once again, straw man. I never suggested the plays should be run for him to take contested 15-foot fadeaways. And nobody is saying that Booker and Durant shouldn’t be shooting in crunch time…just that they could use a little help.

6. One of the best adjustments the Suns (Monty) made in game 2 was the defensive game plan and it was working very well. But you want to scrap it in favor of one of two guys who can't play defense instead of sticking with the guys (Craig/Lee/Okogie) who've put the team in a winning position? A bad coach would've lost faith in those guys ability to hit a shot, panicked by putting in a zero defense guy, and then looked dumb when the Nuggets torched him.

Again you go to extremes. Yes, the defensive strategy was much better in game two. But we’re not talking about “scrapping the defensive game plan”—just adding in one scorer off the bench to help provide offense. Lee had the highest minutes off the bench and it’s not like he was killing it defensively anyway.

[SunsSince92]

1. dOeS hE eVeN cOaCh?!?! ridiculous.

That's the dumbest shit I've read in a while and should almost entirely discredit any other point you put forward in the debate. But whatever...

2. The back up plan was to play the back up PG. He did that. Cam Payne isn't good so Booker became the de facto PG. Did you expect Booker to suddenly start playing like a floor general PG? Maybe bring in someone else who isn't a PG to play PG? Maybe dust off the "When Chris Paul is injured in the middle of a game we change the offense to this" plan. I'm sure that's a valuable use of limited practice time. You know what would've been great? If another highly paid player could create offense instead of having to go 2-on-5.

3. I don't understand these timing/rotations complaints. Do you want 4 of the starters to play all 48 minutes? Guys have to rest and the bench isn't good, so of course those lineups are going to struggle in the playoffs. And those two minutes for Ish Wainwright were just killer. Except they weren't.

4. Sure, match his minutes with Jokic so Ayton fouls out in under 30 minutes. Great idea.

5. Ayton could've surely had a few more shots. It would be nice if he didn't have to depend on everyone else (including Monty, who apparently doesn't run plays) to create them for him. Then again, do I want to watch Ayton take a contested 15-foot fadeaway or Booker/Durant try to break down the defense in crunch time? That's a pretty easy choice for almost everyone to make.

6. One of the best adjustments the Suns (Monty) made in game 2 was the defensive game plan and it was working very well. But you want to scrap it in favor of one of two guys who can't play defense instead of sticking with the guys (Craig/Lee/Okogie) who've put the team in a winning position? A bad coach would've lost faith in those guys ability to hit a shot, panicked by putting in a zero defense guy, and then looked dumb when the Nuggets torched him.

I'm not sure I agree on point 6. Yes they were defending well, but you could also make the case that their combining for a grand total of 2 points, 7 rebounds and 3 assists was what cost us a close game. Giving Warren or Ross a few minutes to see if they could get hot might have given us the bench scoring we needed.

It's all conjecture now though.

[JeremyG]

Of the 8 coaches remaining in the playoffs, how many would you unquestionably rather have instead of Monty?

I say two.

I've wanted Thibodeau for 16 years, so I would take him.

Spoelstra, definitely.

Doc, yes.

Kerr, of course.

Malone...don't like him personally, but he seems to have improved as a coach.

Mazzulla and Ham...would not be my first choices to replace Monty but if I had to choose between either one and Monty, Monty would not be unquestionably ahead of them either.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Of the 8 coaches remaining in the playoffs, how many would you unquestionably rather have instead of Monty?

I say two.

I've wanted Thibodeau for 16 years, so I would take him.

Spoelstra, definitely.

Doc, yes.

Kerr, of course.

Malone...don't like him personally, but he seems to have improved as a coach.

Mazzulla and Ham...would not be my first choices to replace Monty but if I had to choose between either one and Monty, Monty would not be unquestionably ahead of them either.

You want Thibs but don't think Monty is a good offensive coach? Are we watching the same sport?

Doc and Malone are on equal footing with Monty. I'd reluctantly put Thibs in here too, but he has his own set of flaws like the others mentioned.

Mazzulla and Ham haven't done a single thing besides get hired. Monty has won COTY and been to the Finals.

Spoelstra and Kerr are the only two.