How Would You Rebuild the Suns?

[Flagrant Fowl]

I don't know why I didn't think of this in my other Ayton trade possibilities, but Detroit makes a ton of sense. Duren, Bogdanovich and Burks for Ayton and Shamet - or something like that. I'd love to find a way to get Beef Stew also.

Detroit already has 2 other centers, which complicates things, but they're at least giving up one in the trade.

Phoenix - DeRozan, Duren, Bogdanovic
Detroit - Ayton
Chicago - Shamet, #5

Call it in to the league.

[TOO]

No I don't believe so, this team needs more talent. Unless Spo walks through that door, I have no faith in the bench improving, they aren't good players.

Oh...So you're saying coaching could change things.

Sure, if one of the GOATS come aboard, maybe, just maybe they'll get a little more out of a bunch of non nba players.

[Split T]

That feels like a lot for Detroit to give up

[Flagrant Fowl]

It is, but they're dumb. They've long thought Ayton is something that he's not.

[JeremyG]

Really don't see how the Suns make any notable changes holding on to Ayton and Paul. Not sure hiw you upgrade your role guys with zero money.

New coach better believe in miracles.

I'm convinced we could play a LOT better with the current roster than we showed in the Denver series. Can't just ISO Book and Durant and have the other guys standing around doing nothing. We need all five involved in the offense. And if the new coach could light a fire under Ayton, that would make the biggest difference but I too feel like that is futile although I'll continue to hold out hope.

Just not freezing him out of the offense could go a long way.

[JeremyG]

It is, but they're dumb. They've long thought Ayton is something that he's not.

They’ve seen first hand what he can be on a consistent basis given the opportunity. Take a look at his two games against them this season.

[Flagrant Fowl]

It is, but they're dumb. They've long thought Ayton is something that he's not.

They’ve seen first hand what he can be on a consistent basis given the opportunity. Take a look at his two games against them this season.

Yeah, he played well against a shitty team. Cool.

[Flagrant Fowl]

That feels like a lot for Detroit to give up

OK, fine...

Phoenix - DeRozan, Duren, Bogdanovic
Detroit - Ayton, 2024 1st (CHI or PDX) - DET does not have a 2024 1st round pick
Chicago - Hayes, Shamet, #5

[JeremyG]

It is, but they're dumb. They've long thought Ayton is something that he's not.

They’ve seen first hand what he can be on a consistent basis given the opportunity. Take a look at his two games against them this season.

Yeah, he played well against a shitty team. Cool.

But how does a player devoid of offensive abilities score over 30 points, even against a bad team? You just said in the coaching thread that there is nothing being left on the table with Ayton.

[Split T]

They don’t guard him well and the ball handlers find him in good position for easy baskets.

[Flagrant Fowl]

It is, but they're dumb. They've long thought Ayton is something that he's not.

They’ve seen first hand what he can be on a consistent basis given the opportunity. Take a look at his two games against them this season.

Yeah, he played well against a shitty team. Cool.

But how does a player devoid of offensive abilities score over 30 points, even against a bad team? You just said in the coaching thread that there is nothing being left on the table with Ayton.

He's not devoid of offensive abilities, and I never said that. He can score the ball well when set up by teammates or offensive scheme. There's nothing left on the table in terms of development. He's not going to significantly improve his ballhandling, playmaking or 3-point shooting unless he starts actually putting in the work. I haven't seen an indication that'll happen and especially not since he's signed a new contract.

[JeremyG]

They don’t guard him well and the ball handlers find him in good position for easy baskets.

Cool, so I guess we’ll see the same thing from Biyombo or Landale next season.

Now explain how his career high came against the self-declared DPOY.

[JeremyG]

It is, but they're dumb. They've long thought Ayton is something that he's not.

They’ve seen first hand what he can be on a consistent basis given the opportunity. Take a look at his two games against them this season.

Yeah, he played well against a shitty team. Cool.

But how does a player devoid of offensive abilities score over 30 points, even against a bad team? You just said in the coaching thread that there is nothing being left on the table with Ayton.

He's not devoid of offensive abilities, and I never said that. He can score the ball well when set up by teammates or offensive scheme. There's nothing left on the table in terms of development. He's not going to significantly improve his ballhandling, playmaking or 3-point shooting unless he starts actually putting in the work. I haven't seen an indication that'll happen and especially not since he's signed a new contract.

“…or offensive scheme.” So the coaching was leaving a lot on the table then.

As for the second part, seriously? He put in tons of work on his three point shooting, and showed it in training camp. Monty just didn’t let him shoot it—and not even one corner three this year after he worked on that shot all summer.

As Barkley and the rest of the TNT crew always say, a coach can’t give a player confidence but they can take away their confidence.

[Split T]

They don’t guard him well and the ball handlers find him in good position for easy baskets.

Cool, so I guess we’ll see the same thing from Biyombo or Landale next season.

Now explain how his career high came against the self-declared DPOY.

Saying he’s better than Biyombo and Landale isn’t exactly saying much. He better be better than them.

The problem, which many of us have said many times, is you can’t rely on Ayton’s offense because he can’t create it for himself. Could the team/coach/whatever have done a better job getting him the ball at times? Yes of course, but it wasn’t going to change the trajectory of the team. You can easily force the team into a different action by putting bodies in Ayton’s way. He can’t get to his spot off the dribble. He requires a pass after he gets to his spot. He can’t even back a guy down into his spot. Even guards.

The team has to stop it’s natural offense and spend 3-4 seconds trying to get him the ball. A quarter of the time the ball gets knocked away, thrown away, or dropped. He’s great if he catches inside the paint, but the deeper he is, the more bodies that are there to try and stop the pass. And if he catches outside the paint, it’s not a very efficient shot. And it’s always a shot, he never attacks.

He’s a good player, but he’s a role player. A role player who doesn’t think he’s a role player and doesn’t want to do role player stuff. I don’t think that’s gonna change until he gets a chance to try and be a featured player. It’s also just painfully obvious when his heart isn’t in the game. Very little effort, low motor.

Could Monty have used him better? Of course, but Ayton could’ve tried harder at what he was asked to do. And James Jones shouldn’t have kept him around knowing he was a bad fit for how Monty was gonna use him. Lots of blame to go around. Hopefully we can correct that situation soon.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Thanks Split. I’ve moved on and should know better to engage. I’m out of patience to repeat myself.

[Mori Chu]

The only thing freezing Ayton out of the offense were his stone hands. He dropped like half of the entry passes thrown to him.

[Split T]

If Lakers try to use cap space, they may have to let Jarred Vanderbilt go…I’d definitely look at him for cheap.

[JeremyG]

They don’t guard him well and the ball handlers find him in good position for easy baskets.

Cool, so I guess we’ll see the same thing from Biyombo or Landale next season.

Now explain how his career high came against the self-declared DPOY.

Saying he’s better than Biyombo and Landale isn’t exactly saying much. He better be better than them.

The problem, which many of us have said many times, is you can’t rely on Ayton’s offense because he can’t create it for himself. Could the team/coach/whatever have done a better job getting him the ball at times? Yes of course, but it wasn’t going to change the trajectory of the team. You can easily force the team into a different action by putting bodies in Ayton’s way. He can’t get to his spot off the dribble. He requires a pass after he gets to his spot. He can’t even back a guy down into his spot. Even guards.

The team has to stop it’s natural offense and spend 3-4 seconds trying to get him the ball. A quarter of the time the ball gets knocked away, thrown away, or dropped. He’s great if he catches inside the paint, but the deeper he is, the more bodies that are there to try and stop the pass. And if he catches outside the paint, it’s not a very efficient shot. And it’s always a shot, he never attacks.

He’s a good player, but he’s a role player. A role player who doesn’t think he’s a role player and doesn’t want to do role player stuff. I don’t think that’s gonna change until he gets a chance to try and be a featured player. It’s also just painfully obvious when his heart isn’t in the game. Very little effort, low motor.

Could Monty have used him better? Of course, but Ayton could’ve tried harder at what he was asked to do. And James Jones shouldn’t have kept him around knowing he was a bad fit for how Monty was gonna use him. Lots of blame to go around. Hopefully we can correct that situation soon.

None of that answered anything in my post you quoted. And the only reason I named Biyombo and Landale was because you answered that a player devoid of offensive abilities was able to score over 30 points simply due to his teammates finding him in good position for easy baskets. Thus, something Biyombo should be able to do.

“He can’t even back a guy down into his spot.” Except that he’s done it numerous times.

[Split T]

I have never said Ayton is devoid of offensive abilities…he’s devoid of self creation. That’s why I didn’t respond to your Biyombo question. It wasn’t relevant to my point at all.

[Superbone]

No I don't believe so, this team needs more talent. Unless Spo walks through that door, I have no faith in the bench improving, they aren't good players.

Oh...So you're saying coaching could change things.

Sure, if one of the GOATS come aboard, maybe, just maybe they'll get a little more out of a bunch of non nba players.

Come on, man.