TRADE: Ayton/Camara for Nurkic/Allen/Little/Johnson

[Flagrant Fowl]

A lot of the damage control is due to some people not acknowledging the role and fit with Nurkic in addition to how it aligns with the cap distribution. They just want to narrow it down to Ayton > Nurkic so the Suns made a bad move, when there's far more nuance to it in reality.

[TOO]

Not everyone, especially sports fans, live in reality.

[JeremyG]

Ayton didn’t guard in space, switch, or run the court last year either. At least Nurkic won’t freeze when he gets the ball in the short roll.

Ayton was clearly done here…the Ayton Portland gets won’t be the Ayton we would’ve got.

I hate that it’s gonna always be about Nurkic vs Ayton. Ayton will be better than Nurkic next year. I just need Nurkic to be better than Ayton last year and get a boost from Little or Allen.

Then we’re in trouble, because that ain’t happening.

Nurkic wasn’t better than Ayton last year, and Nurkic will likely decline further this year.

I guess I should say Nurkic needs to be better than I thought Ayton was last year. Ayton was better than Bam in your mind.

Do you believe that Nurkic was better last year than Ayton was last year?

[JeremyG]

Man I'm trying not to get into these debates

DA passing like everything else (had moments) when he was hitting cutters or making the swing pass to the corner 3.
There were also times when he already had his mind made up he was going to pass and would miss a scoring opportunity or have turnovers

I can't agree that he has the feel or passing ability of Nurkic
Anyways a thread here with some ideas/possibilities

Spoiler: show/hide

One of my first comments after the trade was about how it'll be nice to watch a Center with a basketball brain and that clip is an example of what I was talking about. I also recall you posting a clip a few weeks ago of Porzingis dishing out some great passes to Beal on cuts to the rim and speculated how Ayton might look in that role. I pushed back because I don't think Ayton can make those plays, but I know Nurkic absolutely can. The guy just needs to stay healthy.

Yeah, there's no way Ayton could. Completely incapable!



(All plays are from last season.)

[BKinSJC]

Man I'm trying not to get into these debates

DA passing like everything else (had moments) when he was hitting cutters or making the swing pass to the corner 3.
There were also times when he already had his mind made up he was going to pass and would miss a scoring opportunity or have turnovers

I can't agree that he has the feel or passing ability of Nurkic
Anyways a thread here with some ideas/possibilities

Spoiler: show/hide

One of my first comments after the trade was about how it'll be nice to watch a Center with a basketball brain and that clip is an example of what I was talking about. I also recall you posting a clip a few weeks ago of Porzingis dishing out some great passes to Beal on cuts to the rim and speculated how Ayton might look in that role. I pushed back because I don't think Ayton can make those plays, but I know Nurkic absolutely can. The guy just needs to stay healthy.

Yeah, there's no way Ayton could. Completely incapable!



(All plays are from last season.)

Ayton has had more turnovers than assists every season of his career. As with many things in his game, he shows occasional flashes but passing and playmaking is not something that he is consistently good at.

[JeremyG]

Man I'm trying not to get into these debates

DA passing like everything else (had moments) when he was hitting cutters or making the swing pass to the corner 3.
There were also times when he already had his mind made up he was going to pass and would miss a scoring opportunity or have turnovers

I can't agree that he has the feel or passing ability of Nurkic
Anyways a thread here with some ideas/possibilities

Spoiler: show/hide

One of my first comments after the trade was about how it'll be nice to watch a Center with a basketball brain and that clip is an example of what I was talking about. I also recall you posting a clip a few weeks ago of Porzingis dishing out some great passes to Beal on cuts to the rim and speculated how Ayton might look in that role. I pushed back because I don't think Ayton can make those plays, but I know Nurkic absolutely can. The guy just needs to stay healthy.

Yeah, there's no way Ayton could. Completely incapable!



(All plays are from last season.)

Ayton has had more turnovers than assists every season of his career. As with many things in his game, he shows occasional flashes but passing and playmaking is not something that he is consistently good at.

It wasn't his role. He wasn't asked to do it.

And we're talking about a specific role of passing to a cutter.

[Split T]

Ayton didn’t guard in space, switch, or run the court last year either. At least Nurkic won’t freeze when he gets the ball in the short roll.

Ayton was clearly done here…the Ayton Portland gets won’t be the Ayton we would’ve got.

I hate that it’s gonna always be about Nurkic vs Ayton. Ayton will be better than Nurkic next year. I just need Nurkic to be better than Ayton last year and get a boost from Little or Allen.

Then we’re in trouble, because that ain’t happening.

Nurkic wasn’t better than Ayton last year, and Nurkic will likely decline further this year.

I guess I should say Nurkic needs to be better than I thought Ayton was last year. Ayton was better than Bam in your mind.

Do you believe that Nurkic was better last year than Ayton was last year?

I didn’t watch him enough to know…but I care how good he is this year with the suns

[SunsRIt]

Man I'm trying not to get into these debates

DA passing like everything else (had moments) when he was hitting cutters or making the swing pass to the corner 3.
There were also times when he already had his mind made up he was going to pass and would miss a scoring opportunity or have turnovers

I can't agree that he has the feel or passing ability of Nurkic
Anyways a thread here with some ideas/possibilities

Spoiler: show/hide

One of my first comments after the trade was about how it'll be nice to watch a Center with a basketball brain and that clip is an example of what I was talking about. I also recall you posting a clip a few weeks ago of Porzingis dishing out some great passes to Beal on cuts to the rim and speculated how Ayton might look in that role. I pushed back because I don't think Ayton can make those plays, but I know Nurkic absolutely can. The guy just needs to stay healthy.

Yeah, there's no way Ayton could. Completely incapable!



(All plays are from last season.)

Ayton has had more turnovers than assists every season of his career. As with many things in his game, he shows occasional flashes but passing and playmaking is not something that he is consistently good at.

It wasn't his role. He wasn't asked to do it.

And we're talking about a specific role of passing to a cutter.

Here’s the problem Jeremy. There wasn’t a question of whether or not Ayton could do the things his highlights show him doing, it was that he could never be COUNTED ON to do any of it. When you would expect a big game out of him he would put up a stinker, blow a layup that should have been a dunk or stand there and just watch. I know what he is capable of and I expected it to get consistent every year and it never happened. I was rooting for Ayton and defending Ayton for the longest time and it finally got to where I just couldn’t do it. 18 & 10 is great for a lot of players, but not him. He is capable of so much more and just doesn’t bring the intensity or attitude to get him there. If he could find that consistency, look out, but he has shown us year after year that he just can’t. Blame Monty all you want(there is definitely room for that), but most of it lies squarely on Ayton’s shoulders.

Enough excuses for the guy. And please stop with Nurkic this and Nurkic that just because he was who Ayton got traded for. Accept it and move on. Please.

[Split T]

Nurkic has nearly double the assist rate of Ayton. Yes Ayton still got assists and I don’t think he’s incapable of making passes. Clearly he’s had some nice passes. That’s not what I’m talking about though, it’s the quick processing, especially on the move. Most of the passes in that Ayton clip had Ayton standing and watching cutters. He delivered good passes, but I don’t recall seeing him catch the ball on the move, not break his stride, dribble towards the rim, and then make the read. Nurkic did that regularly.

[SunsShine]

I was cautiously optimistic entering the season about Ayton finally putting it all together under Vogel and playing with maximum effort consistently, but I’m relieved in a way that I won’t have to be concerned about it with him gone. I think Nurkic can be solid for us and am hopeful he can at least remain healthy for most of the season/playoffs. In addition, I think Allen was a great get (whether we trade him for T.J. or not; either one would surely help this team) and like what I see and hear about Little. It amazes me how deep this team is heading into training camp when the general consensus from the media post Beal trade was the bench being nonexistent and there were almost no resources to improve it.

[Kryptonic]

I was cautiously optimistic entering the season about Ayton finally putting it all together under Vogel and playing with maximum effort consistently, but I’m relieved in a way that I won’t have to be concerned about it with him gone. I think Nurkic can be solid for us and am hopeful he can at least remain healthy for most of the season/playoffs. In addition, I think Allen was a great get (whether we trade him for T.J. or not; either one would surely help this team) and like what I see and hear about Little. It amazes me how deep this team is heading into training camp when the general consensus from the media post Beal trade was the bench being nonexistent and there were almost no resources to improve it.

Welcome!

I was extremely sour on ayton coming out of the post season and was hoping his new coaching staff would help him. Considering what all they had to work with after mortgaging the future for KD; I think team did better than expected. Going to be an interesting start to the season with so many new faces.

[Cap]

I haven't listened to much of the national media analysis yet, but I'm skeptical of anyone's judgment who says that Nurkic isn't a better fit with this Suns team than Ayton. It's plainly obvious how the two players are different and how Nurkic's skill set better matches the role at the Center position.

Can’t switch, can’t guard the perimeter, slow plodder when we’re trying to play at a lightning fast pace…yeah better fit for sure.

We played at a lightning fast pace with Oliver Miller. When it comes to big men, running is more about moving the ball than moving your ass. Having a center who can beat everybody down court is nice, but it’s not essential. That was rarely Ayton, anyway; he has the foot speed but not the reaction time.

Nor desire.

If it was just desire holding him back, then I expect him to do better in Portland — for a while, anyway. We’ll see.

[Split T]

From the Woj article on what went down:

Big trades are like puzzles -- a jumbled slab of salary matches, collective bargaining rules, positions and ages and gamesmanship. What Cronin had going for him had been the outline of a secondary deal with the Suns for center Deandre Ayton; a side negotiation that Cronin kept connecting to his larger talks on Lillard. Before Lillard ever asked out, Portland had discussed ways to acquire Ayton, and so, the Suns made a natural trade partner as a third team.

Ayton for Jusuf Nurkic -- it was a way for the Blazers to get a 25 year-old starting center, and the Suns a starter at half the salary who'd bring with him some role players.

To this end, the Suns could never know the third team in the trade. Cronin kept Suns CEO Josh Bartelstein on the line for months and weeks and days, and finally, hours on Tuesday and Wednesday. Bartelstein, general manager James Jones and owner Mat Ishbia could go days without hearing from Portland, but Cronin would always circle back and keep them abreast.

When Cronin and Horst went to sleep on Tuesday night, they were confident that they had a trade to complete on Wednesday. The Blazers and Bucks just needed to close out terms with the Suns, and they had a deal.

Here's what made that delicate, though: If the deal fell apart, Horst didn't want another team to know how far along these Blazers-Bucks talks had gotten. The Suns knew they were getting Portland's Nurkic, Nassir Little and Keon Johnson in a three-team trade, but the Suns had to get one more asset to make this deal workable. In almost all cases, Cronin would've told Bartelstein that he was getting Milwaukee guard Grayson Allen, but Horst's insistences on secrecy made this different.

Cronin did tell Bartelstein the general salary and position of the mystery player, so the Suns were able to deduce down to two players who that might be -- Allen and Oklahoma City's Victor Oladipo, who is recovering from a serious leg injury. The Thunder are sometimes on the periphery of these big deals, so the Suns thought that was a possibility. Of course, the Thunder were nowhere near this trade.

Cronin kept telling Bartelstein: Just trust me. You're going to like the mystery player. Trust me.

Around 2:15 p.m. ET on Wednesday, Cronin confirmed Bartelstein's suspicions and told him that, yes, they were getting Allen in the trade. After the Suns confirmed it was Allen, Bartelstein, Jones and Ishbia briefly huddled and returned a resounding yes to Cronin. Done, Bartelstein told him. And that was that. The three teams agreed on the trade, and immediately started calling the players and agents involved to inform them of the blockbuster

Sounds like Ayton for Nurkic has been in play for awhile

[Mori Chu]

I bet Ayton will have a good year in Portland. He'll be motivated to prove himself, and he'll be on a worse team that can and should feature him more. That's okay. I don't want to panic if he has a good season for the Blazers.

I don't love Nurkic but I've accepted the fact that this trade was about moving a max-contract mediocre (for us) center for a half-as-expensive mediocre center and a few other pieces. Maybe that's a good asset swap in the long run.

[Flagrant Fowl]

Big trades are like puzzles -- a jumbled slab of salary matches, collective bargaining rules, positions and ages and gamesmanship. What Cronin had going for him had been the outline of a secondary deal with the Suns for center Deandre Ayton; a side negotiation that Cronin kept connecting to his larger talks on Lillard. Before Lillard ever asked out, Portland had discussed ways to acquire Ayton, and so, the Suns made a natural trade partner as a third team.

Ayton for Jusuf Nurkic -- it was a way for the Blazers to get a 25 year-old starting center, and the Suns a starter at half the salary who'd bring with him some role players.

To this end, the Suns could never know the third team in the trade. Cronin kept Suns CEO Josh Bartelstein on the line for months and weeks and days, and finally, hours on Tuesday and Wednesday. Bartelstein, general manager James Jones and owner Mat Ishbia could go days without hearing from Portland, but Cronin would always circle back and keep them abreast.

When Cronin and Horst went to sleep on Tuesday night, they were confident that they had a trade to complete on Wednesday. The Blazers and Bucks just needed to close out terms with the Suns, and they had a deal.

Here's what made that delicate, though: If the deal fell apart, Horst didn't want another team to know how far along these Blazers-Bucks talks had gotten. The Suns knew they were getting Portland's Nurkic, Nassir Little and Keon Johnson in a three-team trade, but the Suns had to get one more asset to make this deal workable. In almost all cases, Cronin would've told Bartelstein that he was getting Milwaukee guard Grayson Allen, but Horst's insistences on secrecy made this different.

Cronin did tell Bartelstein the general salary and position of the mystery player, so the Suns were able to deduce down to two players who that might be -- Allen and Oklahoma City's Victor Oladipo, who is recovering from a serious leg injury. The Thunder are sometimes on the periphery of these big deals, so the Suns thought that was a possibility. Of course, the Thunder were nowhere near this trade.

Cronin kept telling Bartelstein: Just trust me. You're going to like the mystery player. Trust me.

Around 2:15 p.m. ET on Wednesday, Cronin confirmed Bartelstein's suspicions and told him that, yes, they were getting Allen in the trade. After the Suns confirmed it was Allen, Bartelstein, Jones and Ishbia briefly huddled and returned a resounding yes to Cronin. Done, Bartelstein told him. And that was that. The three teams agreed on the trade, and immediately started calling the players and agents involved to inform them of the blockbuster.

So this deal had been on hold for several weeks if not months, which means Vogel was likely aware of the plan when he accepted the head coaching job.

[Split T]

My line for the trade being a success will be:

1. Nurkic stays relatively healthy(55+ games)
2. Nurkic is able to play 20ish minutes in the playoffs
3. Little or Allen make contributions to the playoff rotation.(Or someone we trade them for).

If Nurkic is hurt all year or falls out of the rotstion(like Adams did with Memphis in the playoffs), then I think we made a mistake.

It won’t be a huge mistake if Nurkic is solid and Little/Allen don’t provide much, but it will be a bit dissapointing.

[Kryptonic]

Big trades are like puzzles -- a jumbled slab of salary matches, collective bargaining rules, positions and ages and gamesmanship. What Cronin had going for him had been the outline of a secondary deal with the Suns for center Deandre Ayton; a side negotiation that Cronin kept connecting to his larger talks on Lillard. Before Lillard ever asked out, Portland had discussed ways to acquire Ayton, and so, the Suns made a natural trade partner as a third team.

Ayton for Jusuf Nurkic -- it was a way for the Blazers to get a 25 year-old starting center, and the Suns a starter at half the salary who'd bring with him some role players.

To this end, the Suns could never know the third team in the trade. Cronin kept Suns CEO Josh Bartelstein on the line for months and weeks and days, and finally, hours on Tuesday and Wednesday. Bartelstein, general manager James Jones and owner Mat Ishbia could go days without hearing from Portland, but Cronin would always circle back and keep them abreast.

When Cronin and Horst went to sleep on Tuesday night, they were confident that they had a trade to complete on Wednesday. The Blazers and Bucks just needed to close out terms with the Suns, and they had a deal.

Here's what made that delicate, though: If the deal fell apart, Horst didn't want another team to know how far along these Blazers-Bucks talks had gotten. The Suns knew they were getting Portland's Nurkic, Nassir Little and Keon Johnson in a three-team trade, but the Suns had to get one more asset to make this deal workable. In almost all cases, Cronin would've told Bartelstein that he was getting Milwaukee guard Grayson Allen, but Horst's insistences on secrecy made this different.

Cronin did tell Bartelstein the general salary and position of the mystery player, so the Suns were able to deduce down to two players who that might be -- Allen and Oklahoma City's Victor Oladipo, who is recovering from a serious leg injury. The Thunder are sometimes on the periphery of these big deals, so the Suns thought that was a possibility. Of course, the Thunder were nowhere near this trade.

Cronin kept telling Bartelstein: Just trust me. You're going to like the mystery player. Trust me.

Around 2:15 p.m. ET on Wednesday, Cronin confirmed Bartelstein's suspicions and told him that, yes, they were getting Allen in the trade. After the Suns confirmed it was Allen, Bartelstein, Jones and Ishbia briefly huddled and returned a resounding yes to Cronin. Done, Bartelstein told him. And that was that. The three teams agreed on the trade, and immediately started calling the players and agents involved to inform them of the blockbuster.

So this deal had been on hold for several weeks if not months, which means Vogel was likely aware of the plan when he accepted the head coaching job.

I was assured ayton was one of the main reasons vogel took it…. You saying that’s wrong?

[carey]

Interesting that Allen put this over the top for the team. We've definitely seen a concerted effort to address our lack of 3-point shooting this Summer. Adding Allen is kind of big. We're not sure Yuta's numbers in the corner are legit since it was only one year. But EG can fill it up. KBD can hit at a near 40% clip. ANd Damion Lee is back. So that's 5 legit threats from the perimeter outside of the big 3. I quite like it & if it translates how I think it will you're going to see a lot of Ws this year. My only concern and it's one shared by many of you is the ball handling. Will Beal be enough of a relief valve for when Booker is trapped? I also think we need to be more inventive than we were last year with KD. I don't want to see KD standing in the corner every possession like it felt last year under Monty. He's too skilled and has too much gravity.

[Split T]

I think it’s clear we had discussions about Nurkic for Ayton….nothing happened and it appeared nothing would happen, so we pivoted to trying to rescue the Ayton relationship(Vogel stuff) and then revisited the trade when the Lillard stuff got real.

[Split T]

Interesting that Allen put this over the top for the team. We've definitely seen a concerted effort to address our lack of 3-point shooting this Summer. Adding Allen is kind of big. We're not sure Yuta's numbers in the corner are legit since it was only one year. But EG can fill it up. KBD can hit at a near 40% clip. ANd Damion Lee is back. So that's 5 legit threats from the perimeter outside of the big 3. I quite like it & if it translates how I think it will you're going to see a lot of Ws this year. My only concern and it's one shared by many of you is the ball handling. Will Beal be enough of a relief valve for when Booker is trapped? I also think we need to be more inventive than we were last year with KD. I don't want to see KD standing in the corner every possession like it felt last year under Monty. He's too skilled and has too much gravity.

I saw a stat somewhere that showed we almost ran zero KD/Book pick and rolls last year. We need more of our 2 best players involved in the action.