All Things Ayton

[iLLmatic]

He’d get clobbered in the 90s and 2000s. What are you talking about.

He has old man talent with new kid toughness. He’s average in every era

Maybe late 2000’s, early 2010’s before Curry broke the game. I think he could’ve been LaMarcus Aldridge

Maybe a poor man’s version of LaMarcus Aldridge. LA was tough.

[Split T]

But he was a finesse big that lived off mid range shots. He was probably tougher than Ayton…not hard to do..just not something that immediately comes to mind about him for me.

[Mori Chu]

I don't think Ayton would have been better in another era. He isn't rugged or tough enough to survive in the '80s and '90s when players hand-checked, smashed and crashed into each other on every play with no call. He isn't fast enough to have thrived in the SSOL era. And he isn't good enough of a shooter to make it in the Curry/Harden chucker era. This is probably about as effective as he would be in any NBA era except for maybe the 1950s Mikan and the white boys era, but who really counts that?

[Split T]

Hmm I disagree..I still think he would’ve done well in the inefficient offense era. At least better than now. Someone would’ve featured him more in the offense.

[Charlie Smithy!]

He’d get clobbered in the 90s and 2000s. What are you talking about.

He has old man talent with new kid toughness. He’s average in every era

Maybe late 2000’s, early 2010’s before Curry broke the game. I think he could’ve been LaMarcus Aldridge

How do you feel about Curry breaking the game?

[Split T]

He’d get clobbered in the 90s and 2000s. What are you talking about.

He has old man talent with new kid toughness. He’s average in every era

Maybe late 2000’s, early 2010’s before Curry broke the game. I think he could’ve been LaMarcus Aldridge

How do you feel about Curry breaking the game?

I’m cool with it. I like that it’s opened up the game and it’s more about guard and wing play than bigs. There’s just more abundance of wings/guards so we get better play overall. Skill more important than size. Feels right to me. Skilled size is still very valuable.

[JeremyG]

Grant went and got the ball…That’s just not who Ayton is…the big gaping chasm between you and most of us really comes down to this. The fact Ayton needs someone to pass him the ball is why most of us think he’s not a max player. You don’t see that as Ayton’s problem but as his teammate's problem. That’s a fundamental difference and unless that changes, we will never see eye to eye on this.

I thought the criticism was that he doesn’t dribble or create his own shot (which he did a lot of last night).

Now it’s that he doesn’t “go and get the ball.” What does that even mean?

Did Shaq “go and get the ball”? Did Duncan “go and get the ball”? Dwight Howard? LaMarcus Aldridge? Anthony Davis?

"Davis is not a max player because he plays in the post and needs someone to pass him the ball." Ridiculous.

I was simply stating why Ayton didn’t get any more shots in OT. Jerami Grant would literally go up near the ball handler and get the ball. I’m not saying Ayton should do that, that’s clearly not his game. Just an observation of why he didn’t get shots.

I should have made a separate paragraph for my next point. We just have different beliefs on what we expect basketball to be played like. You keep bringing up these players from past eras where basketball was inefficient as examples of how we should use Ayton. Duncan and Aldridge would have to play differently today. They’d be inefficient bigs. Even Shaq would’ve been just average in efficiency. A good modern team would beat a Shaq led offense of the 2000’s. No one would let Aldridge or Duncan just take midrange shots as the foundation of their offense. There is a reason offenses stopped doing that.

Dwight and AD are basically the best case scenario situations for a big that can’t really create their own shot that well. Dwight was great when he stuck to being just a finisher on the roll. It was when he wanted post touches that he was meh. AD is also at his best just being a finisher. Both are much more aggressive than Ayton and also are both generational defensive talents. Ayton was never close to them as defenders.

There is basically 3 paths to efficient offense as a big:

1. Shoot 3s(KAT, Turner, KP, Lopez)
2. Draw fouls(Embiid, Giannis)
3. Finish at the rim(Rudy, Ayton, Capela, Duren)

There is a 4th type of big and that’s the offensive hub big(Jokic, Sabonis, Bam)

I really don’t know what you want Ayton to be. Ya he could be Aldridge and score 20 points if they let him shoot 12 midrange shots a game, but he’d be wildly inefficient for todays game. You can try to get the ball into him deeper in the post and he might be a little more efficient, but he still doesn’t draw fouls and it’s much more difficult and takes a lot of time to do that. You’re having to build an offense around it.

Vucevic is the one modern big that’s been mentioned by you as a pathway for Ayton to being a 20 point scorer. Ayton would absolute need to shoot 3s for that. Ayton definitely came to the nba in the wrong era. He would’ve been a much better player in the 90’s or 2000’s when inefficient offense ruled the league.

Talking about "inefficiency" with regard to Ayton makes no sense to me. No matter how many touches or attempts he gets, he is one of the most efficient players in the league. Probably because he has a good, balanced mix (at least when he is being used correctly) of the things you mentioned--finishing at the rim, mid-range jumpers, low-block/paint hook shots.

It takes no more time for his teammates to throw the ball into him when he has his man sealed in the center of the lane 3 feet in front of the hoop than it does to ignore him and keep dribbling or passing it around the perimeter, while he has to come out of the paint in order to not get a 3 second violation (which then takes him out of offensive rebounding position as well). By definition, an Ayton paint touch can only take up to 2.9 seconds.

And talking about "a pathway for Ayton to being a 20 point scorer" also makes no sense to me. If he played 3 mpg more last season, he would have been a 20 point scorer.

[JeremyG]

Split you are a saint.

For having a civil debate like a normal, decent human being?

Enough with the condescending bullcrap.

I must really be a saint for dealing with all of the personally insulting comments in these 216 pages.

[TOO]

Split you are a saint.

For having a civil debate like a normal, decent human being?

Enough with the condescending bullcrap.

I must really be a saint for dealing with all of the personally insulting comments in these 216 pages.

You deserve it with your constant goalpost moving and always making sure to blame others because there is no way your guy could ever do anything wrong.

If they just did this and this and this from this angle on a Tuesday he'd be awesome, why can't everyone just see if in the perfect situation with everything catered to your guy he'd be great. It's insane.

[Split T]

Grant went and got the ball…That’s just not who Ayton is…the big gaping chasm between you and most of us really comes down to this. The fact Ayton needs someone to pass him the ball is why most of us think he’s not a max player. You don’t see that as Ayton’s problem but as his teammate's problem. That’s a fundamental difference and unless that changes, we will never see eye to eye on this.

I thought the criticism was that he doesn’t dribble or create his own shot (which he did a lot of last night).

Now it’s that he doesn’t “go and get the ball.” What does that even mean?

Did Shaq “go and get the ball”? Did Duncan “go and get the ball”? Dwight Howard? LaMarcus Aldridge? Anthony Davis?

"Davis is not a max player because he plays in the post and needs someone to pass him the ball." Ridiculous.

I was simply stating why Ayton didn’t get any more shots in OT. Jerami Grant would literally go up near the ball handler and get the ball. I’m not saying Ayton should do that, that’s clearly not his game. Just an observation of why he didn’t get shots.

I should have made a separate paragraph for my next point. We just have different beliefs on what we expect basketball to be played like. You keep bringing up these players from past eras where basketball was inefficient as examples of how we should use Ayton. Duncan and Aldridge would have to play differently today. They’d be inefficient bigs. Even Shaq would’ve been just average in efficiency. A good modern team would beat a Shaq led offense of the 2000’s. No one would let Aldridge or Duncan just take midrange shots as the foundation of their offense. There is a reason offenses stopped doing that.

Dwight and AD are basically the best case scenario situations for a big that can’t really create their own shot that well. Dwight was great when he stuck to being just a finisher on the roll. It was when he wanted post touches that he was meh. AD is also at his best just being a finisher. Both are much more aggressive than Ayton and also are both generational defensive talents. Ayton was never close to them as defenders.

There is basically 3 paths to efficient offense as a big:

1. Shoot 3s(KAT, Turner, KP, Lopez)
2. Draw fouls(Embiid, Giannis)
3. Finish at the rim(Rudy, Ayton, Capela, Duren)

There is a 4th type of big and that’s the offensive hub big(Jokic, Sabonis, Bam)

I really don’t know what you want Ayton to be. Ya he could be Aldridge and score 20 points if they let him shoot 12 midrange shots a game, but he’d be wildly inefficient for todays game. You can try to get the ball into him deeper in the post and he might be a little more efficient, but he still doesn’t draw fouls and it’s much more difficult and takes a lot of time to do that. You’re having to build an offense around it.

Vucevic is the one modern big that’s been mentioned by you as a pathway for Ayton to being a 20 point scorer. Ayton would absolute need to shoot 3s for that. Ayton definitely came to the nba in the wrong era. He would’ve been a much better player in the 90’s or 2000’s when inefficient offense ruled the league.

Talking about "inefficiency" with regard to Ayton makes no sense to me. No matter how many touches or attempts he gets, he is one of the most efficient players in the league. Probably because he has a good, balanced mix (at least when he is being used correctly) of the things you mentioned--finishing at the rim, mid-range jumpers, low-block/paint hook shots.

It takes no more time for his teammates to throw the ball into him when he has his man sealed in the center of the lane 3 feet in front of the hoop than it does to ignore him and keep dribbling or passing it around the perimeter, while he has to come out of the paint in order to not get a 3 second violation (which then takes him out of offensive rebounding position as well). By definition, an Ayton paint touch can only take up to 2.9 seconds.

And talking about "a pathway for Ayton to being a 20 point scorer" also makes no sense to me. If he played 3 mpg more last season, he would have been a 20 point scorer.

I just don’t believe you can get him enough looks where he is efficient enough to be a max level guy. I did some math looking at it yesterday using his career fg% from different ranges.

If you got him 20 shots a game, with 25% coming at the rim, 50% coming in the 3-10 foot range, and 25% coming from midrange, you’d get 11.3/20 from the field which is 56.5%. Solid, but at his career ft rate he’d only take 4 free throws a game. He’d make 3 of them, so he’d average 25.6 points on 20 shots. That’s a .586 TS%

That puts him between Bam/Vucevic and Randle amongst bigs in efficiency. It’s not bad…but not great. Solid is how I’d describe it. For reference, AD had a .627 TS% with nearly this exact shot profile, just with 17 shots. Much higher ft rate though.

I think it’s worth exploring for a team like Portland for sure. See if he can develop more of an attacking game. Learn to draw free throws. Maybe get more shots at the rim which would increase the efficiency.

My concerns…can they really get Ayton 20 shots? Not likely. 17 or 18 seems more likely and that’s gonna cut 2.5-4 points off his ppg. Will he be able to get 50% of his shots in the non-rim paint area? I’d be worried he’d settle for the mid range shots and that’s dropping the efficiency. So you’re looking at more like a 22-23 ppg scorer. Can they get the ball to him without turning it over too much? That’s a problem with post play. I also worry what it does to the flow of the offense. A .586 TS% is perfectly fine if he’s also creating good looks for others.

So worth trying, but nothing screams all-nba player to me. He’s not AD. Vucevic seems like the best comparison.

[Mori Chu]

Split you are a saint.

For having a civil debate like a normal, decent human being?

Enough with the condescending bullcrap.

I must really be a saint for dealing with all of the personally insulting comments in these 216 pages.

You have done well at not responding to rudeness with rudeness. I commend you for that. You are in my view a bit too eager to reply to every criticism of Ayton and try to rebut it; some peace would be had if folks let things go more without feeling the need to retort. That's true for you and for others here as well. But again I think you've shown a lot of patience and grace despite several folks in here repeatedly giving you shit.

[iLLmatic]

Split you are a saint.

For having a civil debate like a normal, decent human being?

Enough with the condescending bullcrap.

I must really be a saint for dealing with all of the personally insulting comments in these 216 pages.

Prior to my knowledge of you being a poster on Spurstalk I thought you were just an Ayton fan to be honest. You definitely seem more interested in still discussing Ayton than the Suns. It’s kind of fun to get you riled up to be honest. I’ll quit trying to antagonize you, my apologies.

[JeremyG]

Split you are a saint.

For having a civil debate like a normal, decent human being?

Enough with the condescending bullcrap.

I must really be a saint for dealing with all of the personally insulting comments in these 216 pages.

Prior to my knowledge of you being a poster on Spurstalk I thought you were just an Ayton fan to be honest. You definitely seem more interested in still discussing Ayton than the Suns. It’s kind of fun to get you riled up to be honest. I’ll quit trying to antagonize you, my apologies.

It's mainly that I enjoy debating, always have (as long as it's civil). And when I have a strong viewpoint about something, I enjoy it even more. So as long as people keep discussing things in here, I keep responding.

[JeremyG]

Grant went and got the ball…That’s just not who Ayton is…the big gaping chasm between you and most of us really comes down to this. The fact Ayton needs someone to pass him the ball is why most of us think he’s not a max player. You don’t see that as Ayton’s problem but as his teammate's problem. That’s a fundamental difference and unless that changes, we will never see eye to eye on this.

I thought the criticism was that he doesn’t dribble or create his own shot (which he did a lot of last night).

Now it’s that he doesn’t “go and get the ball.” What does that even mean?

Did Shaq “go and get the ball”? Did Duncan “go and get the ball”? Dwight Howard? LaMarcus Aldridge? Anthony Davis?

"Davis is not a max player because he plays in the post and needs someone to pass him the ball." Ridiculous.

I was simply stating why Ayton didn’t get any more shots in OT. Jerami Grant would literally go up near the ball handler and get the ball. I’m not saying Ayton should do that, that’s clearly not his game. Just an observation of why he didn’t get shots.

I should have made a separate paragraph for my next point. We just have different beliefs on what we expect basketball to be played like. You keep bringing up these players from past eras where basketball was inefficient as examples of how we should use Ayton. Duncan and Aldridge would have to play differently today. They’d be inefficient bigs. Even Shaq would’ve been just average in efficiency. A good modern team would beat a Shaq led offense of the 2000’s. No one would let Aldridge or Duncan just take midrange shots as the foundation of their offense. There is a reason offenses stopped doing that.

Dwight and AD are basically the best case scenario situations for a big that can’t really create their own shot that well. Dwight was great when he stuck to being just a finisher on the roll. It was when he wanted post touches that he was meh. AD is also at his best just being a finisher. Both are much more aggressive than Ayton and also are both generational defensive talents. Ayton was never close to them as defenders.

There is basically 3 paths to efficient offense as a big:

1. Shoot 3s(KAT, Turner, KP, Lopez)
2. Draw fouls(Embiid, Giannis)
3. Finish at the rim(Rudy, Ayton, Capela, Duren)

There is a 4th type of big and that’s the offensive hub big(Jokic, Sabonis, Bam)

I really don’t know what you want Ayton to be. Ya he could be Aldridge and score 20 points if they let him shoot 12 midrange shots a game, but he’d be wildly inefficient for todays game. You can try to get the ball into him deeper in the post and he might be a little more efficient, but he still doesn’t draw fouls and it’s much more difficult and takes a lot of time to do that. You’re having to build an offense around it.

Vucevic is the one modern big that’s been mentioned by you as a pathway for Ayton to being a 20 point scorer. Ayton would absolute need to shoot 3s for that. Ayton definitely came to the nba in the wrong era. He would’ve been a much better player in the 90’s or 2000’s when inefficient offense ruled the league.

Talking about "inefficiency" with regard to Ayton makes no sense to me. No matter how many touches or attempts he gets, he is one of the most efficient players in the league. Probably because he has a good, balanced mix (at least when he is being used correctly) of the things you mentioned--finishing at the rim, mid-range jumpers, low-block/paint hook shots.

It takes no more time for his teammates to throw the ball into him when he has his man sealed in the center of the lane 3 feet in front of the hoop than it does to ignore him and keep dribbling or passing it around the perimeter, while he has to come out of the paint in order to not get a 3 second violation (which then takes him out of offensive rebounding position as well). By definition, an Ayton paint touch can only take up to 2.9 seconds.

And talking about "a pathway for Ayton to being a 20 point scorer" also makes no sense to me. If he played 3 mpg more last season, he would have been a 20 point scorer.

I just don’t believe you can get him enough looks where he is efficient enough to be a max level guy. I did some math looking at it yesterday using his career fg% from different ranges.

If you got him 20 shots a game, with 25% coming at the rim, 50% coming in the 3-10 foot range, and 25% coming from midrange, you’d get 11.3/20 from the field which is 56.5%. Solid, but at his career ft rate he’d only take 4 free throws a game. He’d make 3 of them, so he’d average 25.6 points on 20 shots. That’s a .586 TS%

That puts him between Bam/Vucevic and Randle amongst bigs in efficiency. It’s not bad…but not great. Solid is how I’d describe it. For reference, AD had a .627 TS% with nearly this exact shot profile, just with 17 shots. Much higher ft rate though.

I think it’s worth exploring for a team like Portland for sure. See if he can develop more of an attacking game. Learn to draw free throws. Maybe get more shots at the rim which would increase the efficiency.

My concerns…can they really get Ayton 20 shots? Not likely. 17 or 18 seems more likely and that’s gonna cut 2.5-4 points off his ppg. Will he be able to get 50% of his shots in the non-rim paint area? I’d be worried he’d settle for the mid range shots and that’s dropping the efficiency. So you’re looking at more like a 22-23 ppg scorer. Can they get the ball to him without turning it over too much? That’s a problem with post play. I also worry what it does to the flow of the offense. A .586 TS% is perfectly fine if he’s also creating good looks for others.

So worth trying, but nothing screams all-nba player to me. He’s not AD. Vucevic seems like the best comparison.

Well "max level guy" could mean different things depending on his level of defense and rebounding combined with his offense.

But why are you assuming that if they use him more, his TS% will drop? His career average is higher than players like Anthony Davis and Embiid.

Yeah 20 shots is probably not realistic, especially if Grant is not traded. But keep in mind that 20 shots takes fewer touches for him if he does continue to not draw many fouls.

I'm glad you agree it's worth exploring for a team like Portland. But if that's true, then it certainly seems like it would have been worth exploring for the Suns (who actually invested their #1 pick into him) in his first two seasons when we were also a non-contending team.

[Split T]

I calculated the TS% based on my assumptions on where his shots would come from. It’s been higher in the past because he took a higher amount of shots at the rim than I would anticipate. Adding shots is going to add shots further away from the rim, not rim attempts.

And I do agree it was worth investing in during his first two years, part of the problem there was he got himself suspended for 25 games in year 2. Year 1 Igor decided to focus on his defensive development.

[Flagrant Fowl]

I bet Terrance Howard is a Deandre Ayton superfan.

[Superbone]

The man is a genius. Stupid lying calculators.

[Kryptonic]

Now I know why Disney dropped him as war machine. Jk Can’t even use an adding machine.

[TOO]

Now I know why Disney dropped him as war machine. Jk Can’t even use an adding machine.

Was there an actual reason they dropped him? I prefer Cheadle as an actor anyway, but never really looked as to why they switched.

[Kryptonic]

Now I know why Disney dropped him as war machine. Jk Can’t even use an adding machine.

Was there an actual reason they dropped him? I prefer Cheadle as an actor anyway, but never really looked as to why they switched.

Looks like it was contract issues for the most part….

https://www.looper.com/139965/the-real- ... ron-man-2/