2024 Presidential race

[Mori Chu]

I am no fan of the national debt. But I don't think that having a debt means we should just ignore the world around us and let allies be overtaken by dictatorships and so on. I don't like the US as the "World's police" but I believe in helping our allies, NATO, etc.

[Nodack]

I would like to see a Christmas story showing two scenarios. One is the path we took during WWII and the other would be the total Isolationist path that most in the US wanted that we were actually on before Japan attacked us. The consensus was screw Europe, we have our own problems. FDR saw the big picture and helped the UK as much as possible under the radar. Would Hitler have won or lost if the US didn’t join in? Maybe the Soviet Union would have finished the job without the US helping and what would the world look like if they did? The Soviet Union map would be much larger. Maybe Hitler wins and the new Germany map is much larger. Certainly no Israel Hamas war to worry about since there would be no more Jewish people on earth after Hitler exterminates them all. Say Hitler won the war we stayed out of. Would he have been happy not conquering the US? Japan was his ally. Towards the end of the war Hitler was spitting out ballistic missiles and fighter jets, not airplanes. Imo going Isolationist then 100% would have definitely changed the world map in a scary bad way.

After Japan attacked we went all in, the allies won, NATO was formed and we haven’t had a WW since.

[specialsauce]

I would like to see a Christmas story showing two scenarios. One is the path we took during WWII and the other would be the total Isolationist path that most in the US wanted that we were actually on before Japan attacked us. The consensus was screw Europe, we have our own problems. FDR saw the big picture and helped the UK as much as possible under the radar. Would Hitler have won or lost if the US didn’t join in? Maybe the Soviet Union would have finished the job without the US helping and what would the world look like if they did? The Soviet Union map would be much larger. Maybe Hitler wins and the new Germany map is much larger. Certainly no Israel Hamas war to worry about since there would be no more Jewish people on earth after Hitler exterminates them all. Say Hitler won the war we stayed out of. Would he have been happy not conquering the US? Japan was his ally. Towards the end of the war Hitler was spitting out ballistic missiles and fighter jets, not airplanes. Imo going Isolationist then 100% would have definitely changed the world map in a scary bad way.

After Japan us attacked we went all in, the allies won, NATO was formed and we haven’t had a WW since.

You’re completely dramatic. I mean you would fit right in with these reality shows with the furor of exaggeration.

Equating everything we’ve been involved in with Hitler and the Holocaust is fear-mongering at best, and extremely dismissive and minimizing of what Jews went through in the Holocaust at worst. Embarrassing.

We’re talking about the US selectively getting involved in matters overseas.

So we go after selective governments who are rather 1) too weak to defend themselves, or 2) where our allies have a clear alternative motive for wanting them defeated.

We have absolutely no business giving money to Israel right now. What they are doing in Gaza is genocide in its own right.

We had no business going and toppling an entire country in Afghanistan. We had no business overthrowing Sadaam and leaving the people of Iraq and Afghanistan in despair without any real governing body left. People from both these countries will tell you that their lives are worse off after what the US came in and did. They would have preferred to deal with it themselves. Hussein and Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11, just like the people in Gaza have nothing to do with Hamas yet we see Israel using that as a great opportunity to capitalize.

How cute that we don’t see this same outrage for the toppling of Sudan. I encourage you to read about it, instead of posting sexy temporary Facebook pictures of France, Ukraine and other sexy trendy pictures that our mainstream media and government have influenced you to support and send condolonces to. Where’s your outrage for what’s happened for the last 50 years to the people of Iran? Should we go bomb the Iranian government? What about Yemen, where’s your sexy profile pic with a Yemen flag?????????

When we were found giving blacks syphilis in the Tuskegee experiments, intentionally giving it to them and letting them die, should foreign countries have bombed us????

How about our Japanese internment camps, should we have been bombed?

How about when it was discovered we were giving the Mexican drug cartels assault rifles??

We have a lot of things in our society today that are embarrassing. Our government is no saint to be selectively attacking and aiding other countries unless there’s a clear genocide ongoing.

Selective outrage is the weapon of the US government and I encourage you to think for yourself without bias and at least be consistent in your messaging.

I wouldn’t want to live in any other country in the world. But let’s not pretend that all governments are not without corruption and without agendas and that we’re the self proclaimed good guys. Let’s just accept that we are no better than our neighbor, and we should focus our attention on bettering ourselves and the people in our own house.

[Nodack]

I wouldn’t begin to try to defend some of our actions in our history. There is a long list of evil things we have done. I seriously doubt there is any country on earth who hasn’t had a checkered past. Our leaders make decisions for us that I certainly don’t always agree with. We didn’t handle Afghanistan well. We had no business in Iraq. Blankets with Polio to the Indians. Stealing half the West from Mexico. Slavery was written into the Constitution. I can’t do anything about the past but I can live in the now.

You completely blew off every point I made about isolationism, which was the topic I was talking about and you went into a diatribe about how evil the US is and how evil I am for not mentioning everything on your list of all the evil things the US has ever done. Help Sudan? Ok, let’s do it. I don’t subscribe to the view that the US government is evil. I think there are corrupt Americans who gain power and use it for their own selfish reasons. We elect those corrupt people. Democracy is only as great as the humans participating in it.

My point was that if we took the isolationist path during WWII and stuck to it that the world map would look a lot different than it does right now and we might not like what we see, if there was a US still on the map. I worry about all kinds of things in the US. The debt is a big one. The world stage is a big one. The biggest threat I see to the US and greater than Hamas, China, NK, Russia or Iran, is Trump and Maga. They win and they will be the leaders of the country remaking the US in their view, which is a lot different than the US I want to live in.

[specialsauce]

No, I didn’t ignore it. You’ve got a straw man’s argument ongoing.

So staying out of world matters can be less dramatic than allowing the Holocaust to happen.

You can both believe in taking care of your own/not meddling in your neighbors business and yet also believe in breaking away from that if you are witnessing mass genocide. They can both be true.

[Nodack]

You guys were talking about not helping Ukraine, who is on the front line of Russian aggression. NATO was formed for just that purpose. Ukraine is right on the precipice of being a Democracy who joins NATO or is conquered by Russia expanding its borders.

That’s called Isolationism, which was my argument. You said it was a straw man argument.

A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion

[Cap]

Don’t waste your breath, Nodack. There’s no point in pointing out what we gain from foreign aid. It doesn’t matter how much we stand to gain. It’s a matter of principle that we should not be doing anything that in any way benefits non-Americans as long as there are Americans who are struggling. If we have to shoot ourselves in the foot to spite foreigners, it’s totally worth it.

[specialsauce]

You guys were talking about not helping Ukraine, who is on the front line of Russian aggression. NATO was formed for just that purpose. Ukraine is right on the precipice of being a Democracy who joins NATO or is conquered by Russia expanding its borders.

That’s called Isolationism, which was my argument. You said it was a straw man argument.

A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion

For your education:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_192648.htm

Part of NATO, Ukraine is not

[Nodack]

I already posted that Ukraine wasn’t in NATO.

Ukraine is right on the precipice of being a Democracy who joins NATO

It was on the precipice of being in NATO when Russia invaded. Russia doesn’t like NATO and the thought of Ukraine joining NATO was too much for Russia to accept so, they decided to conquer Ukraine rather than let it join NATO. Some thought we should help them. Others think we should blow them off and just let Russia invade whoever it wants. None of our business.

[specialsauce]

I already posted that Ukraine wasn’t in NATO.

Ukraine is right on the precipice of being a Democracy who joins NATO

It was on the precipice of being in NATO when Russia invaded. Russia doesn’t like NATO and the thought of Ukraine joining NATO was too much for Russia to accept so, they decided to conquer Ukraine rather than let it join NATO. Some thought we should help them. Others think we should blow them off and just let Russia invade whoever it wants. None of our business.

The precipice? They’ve been on the precipice since like 2003

[Nodack]

Secretary General in Kyiv: Ukraine is closer to NATO than ever before
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_218847.htm
Thursday (28 September 2023) Mr Stoltenberg welcomed that all Allies have agreed that Ukraine will join NATO, and pointed to three historic decisions taken at the Vilnius Summit to help make this a reality. "First, we shortened your path to NATO from two to one step by removing the requirement for a Membership Action Plan," he said. “Second, we agreed a programme to make Ukraine’s forces fully interoperable with your future Allies,” he added. “Third, we strengthened our political ties to an unprecedented level, by establishing the NATO-Ukraine Council – a body where we can consult and take decisions together.” The Secretary General stressed: “these three decisions mean that Ukraine is now closer to NATO than ever before.”

[specialsauce]

Secretary General in Kyiv: Ukraine is closer to NATO than ever before
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_218847.htm
Thursday (28 September 2023) Mr Stoltenberg welcomed that all Allies have agreed that Ukraine will join NATO, and pointed to three historic decisions taken at the Vilnius Summit to help make this a reality. "First, we shortened your path to NATO from two to one step by removing the requirement for a Membership Action Plan," he said. “Second, we agreed a programme to make Ukraine’s forces fully interoperable with your future Allies,” he added. “Third, we strengthened our political ties to an unprecedented level, by establishing the NATO-Ukraine Council – a body where we can consult and take decisions together.” The Secretary General stressed: “these three decisions mean that Ukraine is now closer to NATO than ever before.”

Again, convenient to rush to join NATO when you’re desperate for help and it’s beneficial for you now.

[specialsauce]

NATO Allies agreed at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of NATO, noting that its next step would be to submit an application to the Membership Action Plan (MAP), a NATO programme covering political, economic, defence, resource, security and legal reforms of aspirant countries.


2008! They’ve had since 2008 to make the necessary reforms to meet NATOs standards.

[Nodack]

The official US and NATO stance is consistent with my viewpoint. The MAGA stance is consistent with your viewpoint.

[specialsauce]

The official US and NATO stance is consistent with my viewpoint. The MAGA stance is consistent with your viewpoint.

What the hell are you talking about. And what even is the point of your statement.

The statement about 2008 was directly from the NATO website.

[Mori Chu]

I thought the main reason Ukraine hadn't yet joined NATO was because not enough of the NATO countries were willing to vote them in? Not because Ukraine refused to take necessary steps. Can someone confirm or refute?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E ... _relations

The above article says:

Ukraine applied to integrate with a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country closer to Russia, was elected President.[4] Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014 during the Revolution of Dignity.[5] The interim Yatsenyuk Government initially said that it had no plans to join NATO.[6] However, following the Russian annexation of Crimea and Russian military support for armed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the Second Yatsenyuk Government made joining NATO a priority.

...

Polls conducted between 2005 and 2013 found low support among Ukrainians for NATO membership.[12][13][14][15][16][17] However, since the beginning of the Russo-Ukrainian War in 2014, Ukrainian public support for NATO membership has risen greatly. ... A 2017 poll found that some 69% of Ukrainians wanted to join NATO.

...

On 30 September 2022, Ukraine formally applied to join NATO, following Russia's annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine.

So it sounds like from 2008-2014, their president did not want to join NATO. Then especially after 2019, they have wanted to join. And they've officially applied to join. So the idea that they aren't in because they don't want to be in, or because they aren't trying to be in, seems incorrect to me.

[specialsauce]

I thought the main reason Ukraine hadn't yet joined NATO was because not enough of the NATO countries were willing to vote them in? Not because Ukraine refused to take necessary steps. Can someone confirm or refute?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E ... _relations

The above article says:

Ukraine applied to integrate with a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country closer to Russia, was elected President.[4] Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014 during the Revolution of Dignity.[5] The interim Yatsenyuk Government initially said that it had no plans to join NATO.[6] However, following the Russian annexation of Crimea and Russian military support for armed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the Second Yatsenyuk Government made joining NATO a priority.

...

Polls conducted between 2005 and 2013 found low support among Ukrainians for NATO membership.[12][13][14][15][16][17] However, since the beginning of the Russo-Ukrainian War in 2014, Ukrainian public support for NATO membership has risen greatly. ... A 2017 poll found that some 69% of Ukrainians wanted to join NATO.

...

On 30 September 2022, Ukraine formally applied to join NATO, following Russia's annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine.

So it sounds like from 2008-2014, their president did not want to join NATO. Then especially after 2019, they have wanted to join. And they've officially applied to join. So the idea that they aren't in because they don't want to be in, or because they aren't trying to be in, seems incorrect to me.

They applied 9/30/2022.

[Nodack]

The official US and NATO stance is consistent with my viewpoint. The MAGA stance is consistent with your viewpoint.

What the hell are you talking about. And what even is the point of your statement.

The statement about 2008 was directly from the NATO website.

I think you know the point and are just arguing for arguing sake. The point is the US and NATO support Ukraine’s fight against Russia and are willing to give them weapons and supplies in that fight. They see the big picture. That aligns with my stance of giving Ukraine weapons and supplies they need to help defend against Russia. The Trump, Maga and some others stance is to say screw Ukraine. Not our problem.

[specialsauce]

The official US and NATO stance is consistent with my viewpoint. The MAGA stance is consistent with your viewpoint.

What the hell are you talking about. And what even is the point of your statement.

The statement about 2008 was directly from the NATO website.

I think you know the point and are just arguing for arguing sake. The point is the US and NATO support Ukraine’s fight against Russia and are willing to give them weapons and supplies in that fight. They see the big picture. That aligns with my stance of giving Ukraine weapons and supplies they need to help defend against Russia. The Trump, Maga and some others stance is to say screw Ukraine. Not our problem.

Dude. The US funding Ukraine is what started this whole discussion, so you’re just stating the obvious. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.

[Kryptonic]

It’s a vicious cycle…. I’m all for helping others, if we have it.

Everyone has some personal attachment to their reasoning to where and why they vote. What are important things to you guys with a candidate? For me…. It’s sounds trivial but assure you it would be life changing for me but we need to federally legalize cannabis. I’m not a stoner but someone who relies on it just to function with my spinal issues. It’s been life changing for our family as it’s allowed me to be able to do more with the family than I have in years. I can’t travel with the family because of the feds still considering it a scheduled substance. This is huge for me, but wouldn’t vote on a candidate souly on this. For the record… If trump said he’d legalize it, still wouldn’t vote for that douche bag.