2024 Suns Offseason: Where do we go from here?

[Flagrant Fowl]

Yeah, defense and rebounding were clearly the Suns biggest issues to me.

[Mori Chu]

I think that talk about "We didn't use KD correctly" was more directed at KD himself. The FO is trying to signal to KD that we'll try to use him better next year so he doesn't stay mad. He's likely been leaking some of these negative stories to the media this week and they don't want him to get upset and stay mad all summer.

[Superbone]

I’ve only seen his responses and not the whole presser but Ishbia doesn’t seem to understand that it’s not that we’re disappointed that the Suns didn’t win a title, it’s how we didn’t win the title.

This team was listless, disjointed, inconsistent, showed no grit, had bad vibes, played an outdated offensive style and addressed none of their game 2 issues by game 82. And then they went out with an appropriate whimper.

This isn’t the scenario where a group of warriors just came up short and their close loss will be the fuel that galvanizes them and finally brings home a title. This is the “insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results” scenario.

Prepare to go insane.

Can't wait!

[Superbone]

Yeah, defense and rebounding were clearly the Suns biggest issues to me.

Yup. 100%

[Drewsprocket]

Yeah, defense and rebounding were clearly the Suns biggest issues to me.

Yup. 100%

Not to be a contrarian but do you both mean their consistent offense meltdowns didn’t stand out as a bigger issue than D and rebounding? They were 13th in the league on D. They performed better on D than I expected. That they kept turning over the ball made their defense worse.

[SunsSince92]

The presser was just a smokescreen. You can't read much into the comments from either guy. Ishbia would be mad to back himself into a corner by committing to Jones, Vogel or the players when the post season is in full flow and different options may become available depending on how they pan out.

Does Jones really think Vogel did a great job or is he just trying to vindicate his decision to hire him? It's purely a political move to try to convince Ishbia that he is making the right decisions and is capable of remaining in the role of GM.

[Superbone]

Yeah, defense and rebounding were clearly the Suns biggest issues to me.

Yup. 100%

Not to be a contrarian but do you both mean their consistent offense meltdowns didn’t stand out as a bigger issue than D and rebounding? They were 13th in the league on D. They performed better on D than I expected. That they kept turning over the ball made their defense worse.

We are talking specifically about the Suns/Wolves playoff series. 16 teams make the playoffs so 13th isn't so hot (not to mention that it is a regular season stat) and they couldn't stop the Wolves to save their lives. On the rare occasions they did stop them, the Wolves would get an offensive rebound, or two, and score anyway. So, those two things stood out as our biggest two issues. We scored at a decent clip in spite of the Wolves excellent defense.

[Flagrant Fowl]

The only way the Suns were able to compete in Game 4 was because they actually hit shots.

The Suns had no chance of outright stopping the Wolves, they had to outscore them and get some lucky breaks with Wolves errors to have a chance of winning any game in the series.

[ShelC]

Wrote a lot of stuff, just braindumping so putting a spoiler on it but TL;DR- Vogel should be fired but might not be; the roster probably stays the same; we should've played better and I think a large part of that was due to coaching; we gotta get back to rebuilding thru the draft.

Spoiler: show/hide

On coaching - I just can’t see how Vogel can be kept. He’s not the guy. Maybe that’s too harsh on him because there are other issues with this team for sure but he never clicked with the lockeroom and it was obvious all year long. Nothing we did on the court looked good or looked like sustainable winning basketball. I don’t care what the numbers said about our offense or defense, everything was a struggle even when we were winning games. Every single thing we were bad at in November, we were bad at in April. So for me there’s no scenario where everyone’s brought back to try it again next year. And it’s typically easier to get rid of one coach than replace high priced players.

That leaves us in a tough spot obviously. It’s not a good idea to fire the head coach without your ideal choice lined up to replace him, so this could drag out. And if a guy like Lue doesn’t become available, then what? Are we looking for a mercenary coach to lead a team of mercenaries? Can chemistry be reset with new offensive and defensive approaches? I guess that’s something only the players know. Do we trust another retread veteran like Budenholzer or Stotts? Or hire a younger or first-time head coach for a veteran group with title hopes? There may not be any good answers.

For me, a bad case scenario would be having no other realistic options and trying to reset with him and the core for next season. Can't see that working out.

But who else can take over?

I’d lean hard into what Book said about details and prep. That’s the kind of coach and identity we need to be seeking out. He could be talking about players too (KD? Beal?), but there’s only so much to be done there. The last 3 years weren’t a fluke, Book’s that good and we shouldn’t be mad at him for what he wants and expects.

Roster - I don’t see any major trades happening. If we nail the right coach, we could extend the window to maybe 2 more seasons where we’re competitive but probably not really contenders. A lot would obviously depend on health and moves on the margins. Generally tho, I think this roster is capable of a lot more simply in terms of effort and smart, consistent play.

With the current core we know we’re older, slower, less athletic, generally smaller than the contenders. Do we lean into the offense and live with the defense so long as it’s on point? What coach can bring that out? Can we fix all of the roster problem this upcoming offseason? Do we focus on a bigger 3/4 ? A starting level PG? We know we’ll need a backup center, too.

Bigger questions: Can Book, KD and Beal all successfully exist together on the same team? If Book and KD aren’t aligned on how to win or what it takes to win, then that needs to be figured out. If Book and Beal can’t work together in the backcourt, then that needs to be figured out. It doesn’t seem like any of them hate the other, which I guess is a good thing. But I think anyone sensed a ton of chemistry between the 3 during the year.

I'm sure we'll get into the weeds with free agency and the draft but overall I'd love to see Jones be able to work the draft and somehow get 2 playable young guys to come in and rejuvenate things. We need some competitiveness, some fire, some hustle, some likable homegrown players with winning backgrounds. And we need them cheap.

[Carno]

Suns press conference went as expected. Continuity is the only option that provides a chance at competing for a championship next season. Everything else is a step back, including a coaching change.

[In2ition]

I think that talk about "We didn't use KD correctly" was more directed at KD himself. The FO is trying to signal to KD that we'll try to use him better next year so he doesn't stay mad. He's likely been leaking some of these negative stories to the media this week and they don't want him to get upset and stay mad all summer.

That's exactly what I was thinking too.

[Split T]

I just don’t share the same defensive concerns as you. We were 13th in defense this year. The defense wasn’t the problem against Minny…the offense sucked and when we started to slip we let go of the rope and let Minny go crazy.

LeBron plays defense in the playoffs. The Lakers held the nuggets to well below their regular season offensive efficiency. I can’t believe I’m having to argue why LeBron James at the vet min would be good for this team.

The defense wasn't a problem against Minny?! Are you freakin' kidding me?! They scored every time down the court.

Wasn’t the problem. Of course it was a problem. Everything was a problem. But the offense had a 110 offensive rating for the series. It doesn’t matter how good your defense is, you’re not beating anyone with that level of offense.

Our pace dropped, turnovers went up, 3pt attempt rate dropped(lowest in the playoffs), our efg% dropped big time, and so did our offensive rebound %. We got less possessions, took worse shots, and made them at a much lower rate than the regular season. The only good thing we did was get to the ft line.

The defense wasn’t good either, but we knew the defense wasn’t good coming in. Still, Minny actually had a more efg% against us than they did in the regular season. Their offense was buoyed by an insane orb%(they got almost 40% of their own misses) and they also got to the ft line a bunch.

Rebounding I think can be considered the problem, we got obliterated 185-130 on the boards for the series. Other big problems were increased turnovers, not shooting 3s, not making shots, and spiraling out of control once the game started to slip away.

I don’t lump rebounding into defense. I thought our defense was to be expected in defending the first action. We could have won the series defending like we did if we rebounded the ball, didn’t turn it over, and took more 3s.

[Split T]

Wrote a lot of stuff, just braindumping so putting a spoiler on it but TL;DR- Vogel should be fired but might not be; the roster probably stays the same; we should've played better and I think a large part of that was due to coaching; we gotta get back to rebuilding thru the draft.

Spoiler: show/hide

On coaching - I just can’t see how Vogel can be kept. He’s not the guy. Maybe that’s too harsh on him because there are other issues with this team for sure but he never clicked with the lockeroom and it was obvious all year long. Nothing we did on the court looked good or looked like sustainable winning basketball. I don’t care what the numbers said about our offense or defense, everything was a struggle even when we were winning games. Every single thing we were bad at in November, we were bad at in April. So for me there’s no scenario where everyone’s brought back to try it again next year. And it’s typically easier to get rid of one coach than replace high priced players.

That leaves us in a tough spot obviously. It’s not a good idea to fire the head coach without your ideal choice lined up to replace him, so this could drag out. And if a guy like Lue doesn’t become available, then what? Are we looking for a mercenary coach to lead a team of mercenaries? Can chemistry be reset with new offensive and defensive approaches? I guess that’s something only the players know. Do we trust another retread veteran like Budenholzer or Stotts? Or hire a younger or first-time head coach for a veteran group with title hopes? There may not be any good answers.

For me, a bad case scenario would be having no other realistic options and trying to reset with him and the core for next season. Can't see that working out.

But who else can take over?

I’d lean hard into what Book said about details and prep. That’s the kind of coach and identity we need to be seeking out. He could be talking about players too (KD? Beal?), but there’s only so much to be done there. The last 3 years weren’t a fluke, Book’s that good and we shouldn’t be mad at him for what he wants and expects.

Roster - I don’t see any major trades happening. If we nail the right coach, we could extend the window to maybe 2 more seasons where we’re competitive but probably not really contenders. A lot would obviously depend on health and moves on the margins. Generally tho, I think this roster is capable of a lot more simply in terms of effort and smart, consistent play.

With the current core we know we’re older, slower, less athletic, generally smaller than the contenders. Do we lean into the offense and live with the defense so long as it’s on point? What coach can bring that out? Can we fix all of the roster problem this upcoming offseason? Do we focus on a bigger 3/4 ? A starting level PG? We know we’ll need a backup center, too.

Bigger questions: Can Book, KD and Beal all successfully exist together on the same team? If Book and KD aren’t aligned on how to win or what it takes to win, then that needs to be figured out. If Book and Beal can’t work together in the backcourt, then that needs to be figured out. It doesn’t seem like any of them hate the other, which I guess is a good thing. But I think anyone sensed a ton of chemistry between the 3 during the year.

I'm sure we'll get into the weeds with free agency and the draft but overall I'd love to see Jones be able to work the draft and somehow get 2 playable young guys to come in and rejuvenate things. We need some competitiveness, some fire, some hustle, some likable homegrown players with winning backgrounds. And we need them cheap.

I wouldn’t get your hopes up on the draft stuff. JJ doesn’t really believe in the draft and it seems Ishbia lines up in those beliefs. We’ll be trading our pick probably every year.

[Split T]

Yeah, defense and rebounding were clearly the Suns biggest issues to me.

Yup. 100%

Not to be a contrarian but do you both mean their consistent offense meltdowns didn’t stand out as a bigger issue than D and rebounding? They were 13th in the league on D. They performed better on D than I expected. That they kept turning over the ball made their defense worse.

We are talking specifically about the Suns/Wolves playoff series. 16 teams make the playoffs so 13th isn't so hot (not to mention that it is a regular season stat) and they couldn't stop the Wolves to save their lives. On the rare occasions they did stop them, the Wolves would get an offensive rebound, or two, and score anyway. So, those two things stood out as our biggest two issues. We scored at a decent clip in spite of the Wolves excellent defense.

We scored at an awful clip(our offensive rating was lower than the Wizards. Would have been 25th in the league) and we did stop the wolves first shot a lot. We gave up a crazy amount of offensive rebounds.

[Superbone]

Wrote a lot of stuff, just braindumping so putting a spoiler on it but TL;DR- Vogel should be fired but might not be; the roster probably stays the same; we should've played better and I think a large part of that was due to coaching; we gotta get back to rebuilding thru the draft.

Spoiler: show/hide

On coaching - I just can’t see how Vogel can be kept. He’s not the guy. Maybe that’s too harsh on him because there are other issues with this team for sure but he never clicked with the lockeroom and it was obvious all year long. Nothing we did on the court looked good or looked like sustainable winning basketball. I don’t care what the numbers said about our offense or defense, everything was a struggle even when we were winning games. Every single thing we were bad at in November, we were bad at in April. So for me there’s no scenario where everyone’s brought back to try it again next year. And it’s typically easier to get rid of one coach than replace high priced players.

That leaves us in a tough spot obviously. It’s not a good idea to fire the head coach without your ideal choice lined up to replace him, so this could drag out. And if a guy like Lue doesn’t become available, then what? Are we looking for a mercenary coach to lead a team of mercenaries? Can chemistry be reset with new offensive and defensive approaches? I guess that’s something only the players know. Do we trust another retread veteran like Budenholzer or Stotts? Or hire a younger or first-time head coach for a veteran group with title hopes? There may not be any good answers.

For me, a bad case scenario would be having no other realistic options and trying to reset with him and the core for next season. Can't see that working out.

But who else can take over?

I’d lean hard into what Book said about details and prep. That’s the kind of coach and identity we need to be seeking out. He could be talking about players too (KD? Beal?), but there’s only so much to be done there. The last 3 years weren’t a fluke, Book’s that good and we shouldn’t be mad at him for what he wants and expects.

Roster - I don’t see any major trades happening. If we nail the right coach, we could extend the window to maybe 2 more seasons where we’re competitive but probably not really contenders. A lot would obviously depend on health and moves on the margins. Generally tho, I think this roster is capable of a lot more simply in terms of effort and smart, consistent play.

With the current core we know we’re older, slower, less athletic, generally smaller than the contenders. Do we lean into the offense and live with the defense so long as it’s on point? What coach can bring that out? Can we fix all of the roster problem this upcoming offseason? Do we focus on a bigger 3/4 ? A starting level PG? We know we’ll need a backup center, too.

Bigger questions: Can Book, KD and Beal all successfully exist together on the same team? If Book and KD aren’t aligned on how to win or what it takes to win, then that needs to be figured out. If Book and Beal can’t work together in the backcourt, then that needs to be figured out. It doesn’t seem like any of them hate the other, which I guess is a good thing. But I think anyone sensed a ton of chemistry between the 3 during the year.

I'm sure we'll get into the weeds with free agency and the draft but overall I'd love to see Jones be able to work the draft and somehow get 2 playable young guys to come in and rejuvenate things. We need some competitiveness, some fire, some hustle, some likable homegrown players with winning backgrounds. And we need them cheap.

I wouldn’t get your hopes up on the draft stuff. JJ doesn’t really believe in the draft and it seems Ishbia lines up in those beliefs. We’ll be trading our pick probably every year.

I don't know about that. I think we fully intended to keep Camara this season. (But I don't claim to have a photographic memory.)

[Split T]

Wrote a lot of stuff, just braindumping so putting a spoiler on it but TL;DR- Vogel should be fired but might not be; the roster probably stays the same; we should've played better and I think a large part of that was due to coaching; we gotta get back to rebuilding thru the draft.

Spoiler: show/hide

On coaching - I just can’t see how Vogel can be kept. He’s not the guy. Maybe that’s too harsh on him because there are other issues with this team for sure but he never clicked with the lockeroom and it was obvious all year long. Nothing we did on the court looked good or looked like sustainable winning basketball. I don’t care what the numbers said about our offense or defense, everything was a struggle even when we were winning games. Every single thing we were bad at in November, we were bad at in April. So for me there’s no scenario where everyone’s brought back to try it again next year. And it’s typically easier to get rid of one coach than replace high priced players.

That leaves us in a tough spot obviously. It’s not a good idea to fire the head coach without your ideal choice lined up to replace him, so this could drag out. And if a guy like Lue doesn’t become available, then what? Are we looking for a mercenary coach to lead a team of mercenaries? Can chemistry be reset with new offensive and defensive approaches? I guess that’s something only the players know. Do we trust another retread veteran like Budenholzer or Stotts? Or hire a younger or first-time head coach for a veteran group with title hopes? There may not be any good answers.

For me, a bad case scenario would be having no other realistic options and trying to reset with him and the core for next season. Can't see that working out.

But who else can take over?

I’d lean hard into what Book said about details and prep. That’s the kind of coach and identity we need to be seeking out. He could be talking about players too (KD? Beal?), but there’s only so much to be done there. The last 3 years weren’t a fluke, Book’s that good and we shouldn’t be mad at him for what he wants and expects.

Roster - I don’t see any major trades happening. If we nail the right coach, we could extend the window to maybe 2 more seasons where we’re competitive but probably not really contenders. A lot would obviously depend on health and moves on the margins. Generally tho, I think this roster is capable of a lot more simply in terms of effort and smart, consistent play.

With the current core we know we’re older, slower, less athletic, generally smaller than the contenders. Do we lean into the offense and live with the defense so long as it’s on point? What coach can bring that out? Can we fix all of the roster problem this upcoming offseason? Do we focus on a bigger 3/4 ? A starting level PG? We know we’ll need a backup center, too.

Bigger questions: Can Book, KD and Beal all successfully exist together on the same team? If Book and KD aren’t aligned on how to win or what it takes to win, then that needs to be figured out. If Book and Beal can’t work together in the backcourt, then that needs to be figured out. It doesn’t seem like any of them hate the other, which I guess is a good thing. But I think anyone sensed a ton of chemistry between the 3 during the year.

I'm sure we'll get into the weeds with free agency and the draft but overall I'd love to see Jones be able to work the draft and somehow get 2 playable young guys to come in and rejuvenate things. We need some competitiveness, some fire, some hustle, some likable homegrown players with winning backgrounds. And we need them cheap.

I wouldn’t get your hopes up on the draft stuff. JJ doesn’t really believe in the draft and it seems Ishbia lines up in those beliefs. We’ll be trading our pick probably every year.

I don't know about that. I think we fully intended to keep Camara this season. (But I don't claim to have a photographic memory.)

Fair, I should’ve said 1st round picks. JJ does seem to like finding unknown guys in the draft.

[ShelC]

I wouldn't be surprised if we moved the pick or any picks we have, I just hate that we'll do it. I think Camara could've been a help to us and would like to see more picks like him, Cam and Mikal. Doesn't make sense that just because we have a 2-3 year window that we can't draft anyone to help now and later.

[Split T]

Ya I would like to utilize the draft as well, just don’t think James Jones views it that way.

[Carno]

I think they keep the pick and the player they pick. It is one of the few ways to add salary; in this case: $2,562,200 in the first year. They need players to send to the new g league team if nothing else.

[Split T]

I hope you’re right…I think we’re gonna try and attach it to Nurk or Little to get a better player.