Suns Fire Frank Vogel

[Superbone]

Some interesting points here:

https://arizonasports.com/story/3547031 ... m-dynamic/

Vogel at his opening press conference in June said “our number one habit we develop all year is that we have to play harder and tougher and with more hustle than our opponents every night.” He described it as a “scrappy as hell” group and later on in training camp said they will play with pace offensively and get up 3s at a high level.

None of that came close to translating, not even for just a few weeks.

After they made the Beal trade, there was essentially no chance for the Suns to be the team Vogel described.

That quote has been shared ad nauseum. Not sure how pre Beal vs post Beal meant we went from having a chance to be the team he envisioned to no chance of being that team.

Agreed. I don't know why we'd pin it on Beal as the reason. He showed me the most hustle out of the big 3.

[Superbone]

Vogel realistically never had a chance once Ayton was moved.

Ha! Is that you, Jeremy? I would have loved to have seen an as scrappy as hell Ayton.

[Superbone]

Some interesting points here:

https://arizonasports.com/story/3547031 ... m-dynamic/

Vogel at his opening press conference in June said “our number one habit we develop all year is that we have to play harder and tougher and with more hustle than our opponents every night.” He described it as a “scrappy as hell” group and later on in training camp said they will play with pace offensively and get up 3s at a high level.

None of that came close to translating, not even for just a few weeks.

After they made the Beal trade, there was essentially no chance for the Suns to be the team Vogel described.

That quote has been shared ad nauseum. Not sure how pre Beal vs post Beal meant we went from having a chance to be the team he envisioned to no chance of being that team.

Chris Paul's contract was key to creating flexibility to bring in guys to help create that sort of team. The Beal trade took away the cap exceptions and committed the Suns to three superstars, and no point guard. The Suns weren't going to be able to play with pace consistently without a pace-setter, and none of their superstars can set the pace. Having those three guys on the court for the majority of the game means you only have two spots for players that will actually play the way Vogel was describing. That wasn't going to get it done.

Besides banking on minimum deal players, the Suns only had one other way to bring in talent to be able to play the way Vogel was describing, and that was dealing Ayton. Unfortunately, the return wasn't great. I would say Allen fits the mold of what Vogel was describing, but that's about it.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes much more sense.

[Split T]

Some interesting points here:

https://arizonasports.com/story/3547031 ... m-dynamic/

Vogel at his opening press conference in June said “our number one habit we develop all year is that we have to play harder and tougher and with more hustle than our opponents every night.” He described it as a “scrappy as hell” group and later on in training camp said they will play with pace offensively and get up 3s at a high level.

None of that came close to translating, not even for just a few weeks.

After they made the Beal trade, there was essentially no chance for the Suns to be the team Vogel described.

That quote has been shared ad nauseum. Not sure how pre Beal vs post Beal meant we went from having a chance to be the team he envisioned to no chance of being that team.

Chris Paul's contract was key to creating flexibility to bring in guys to help create that sort of team. The Beal trade took away the cap exceptions and committed the Suns to three superstars, and no point guard. The Suns weren't going to be able to play with pace consistently without a pace-setter, and none of their superstars can set the pace. Having those three guys on the court for the majority of the game means you only have two spots for players that will actually play the way Vogel was describing. That wasn't going to get it done.

Besides banking on minimum deal players, the Suns only had one other way to bring in talent to be able to play the way Vogel was describing, and that was dealing Ayton. Unfortunately, the return wasn't great. I would say Allen fits the mold of what Vogel was describing, but that's about it.

To be clear, waiving and stretching CP3 was the only way to get the cap exceptions…or dumping Ayton for nothing. I think there was ways to make it work going that path, but it also would’ve been tricky. We took the Beal route hoping we could just overwhelm our opponent with star talent…obviously didn’t work. We played with pace at times and I thought we looked good…but you’re right that none of our guys could consistently do that.

[Superbone]

Some interesting points here:

https://arizonasports.com/story/3547031 ... m-dynamic/

Vogel at his opening press conference in June said “our number one habit we develop all year is that we have to play harder and tougher and with more hustle than our opponents every night.” He described it as a “scrappy as hell” group and later on in training camp said they will play with pace offensively and get up 3s at a high level.

None of that came close to translating, not even for just a few weeks.

After they made the Beal trade, there was essentially no chance for the Suns to be the team Vogel described.

That quote has been shared ad nauseum. Not sure how pre Beal vs post Beal meant we went from having a chance to be the team he envisioned to no chance of being that team.

Chris Paul's contract was key to creating flexibility to bring in guys to help create that sort of team. The Beal trade took away the cap exceptions and committed the Suns to three superstars, and no point guard. The Suns weren't going to be able to play with pace consistently without a pace-setter, and none of their superstars can set the pace. Having those three guys on the court for the majority of the game means you only have two spots for players that will actually play the way Vogel was describing. That wasn't going to get it done.

Besides banking on minimum deal players, the Suns only had one other way to bring in talent to be able to play the way Vogel was describing, and that was dealing Ayton. Unfortunately, the return wasn't great. I would say Allen fits the mold of what Vogel was describing, but that's about it.

To be clear, waiving and stretching CP3 was the only way to get the cap exceptions…or dumping Ayton for nothing. I think there was ways to make it work going that path, but it also would’ve been tricky. We took the Beal route hoping we could just overwhelm our opponent with star talent…obviously didn’t work. We played with pace at times and I thought we looked good…but you’re right that none of our guys could consistently do that.

I think it's now obvious that Vogel was unable to maximize the big 3. Like INF said, Bud should do a better job of that. Still, we all know that defense wins championships and the D'Antoni (and before him Westhead) theory of overwhelming offensively alone doesn't work. The Warriors were the closest thing to that but they also had a pretty dang good defense during their championship runs.

[Cap]

Vogel realistically never had a chance once Ayton was moved.

Ha! Is that you, Jeremy? I would have loved to have seen an as scrappy as hell Ayton.

So would Blazers fans. Then they found out that the way to get a scrappy-as-hell Ayton is to have every other scorer on your team out with injury.

When you have no choice but to go to Ayton every time down the floor, he’ll scrap. Otherwise, forget it.

[Split T]

You can win with offense…you just need a competent defense. Denver was slightly above average defensively when they won. Our defense was decent at times(not against Minny in the playoffs)..but our problem was the offense was rarely elite. We needed it elite to win with an average at best offense.

[Superbone]

Vogel realistically never had a chance once Ayton was moved.

Ha! Is that you, Jeremy? I would have loved to have seen an as scrappy as hell Ayton.

So would Blazers fans. Then they found out that the way to get a scrappy-as-hell Ayton is to have every other scorer on your team out with injury.

When you have no choice but to go to Ayton every time down the floor, he’ll scrap. Otherwise, forget it.

Or to buy him a nice mattress and get him to stop playing video games after midnight.

[iLLmatic]

Vogel realistically never had a chance once Ayton was moved.

Ha! Is that you, Jeremy? I would have loved to have seen an as scrappy as hell Ayton.

So would Blazers fans. Then they found out that the way to get a scrappy-as-hell Ayton is to have every other scorer on your team out with injury.

When you have no choice but to go to Ayton every time down the floor, he’ll scrap. Otherwise, forget it.

Or to buy him a nice mattress and get him to stop playing video games after midnight.

Make sure you have guys out there keeping his driveway shoveled too.

[Kryptonic]

Wrong thread….

[Superbone]

Wrong thread….

I have no idea of what you're talking about. And if I did, I personally vouched to never post in there again.

[INFORMER]

President of basketball operations and general manager James Jones explained why the move to fire Vogel was about timing. He also ultimately laid blame on Vogel, because he saw “inconsistency in our competitive nature.” As in, the coaching change was as simple as reaching its players, the Big Three and beyond.

“We needed to improve in a lot of areas. By and large, we just felt the timing to shift was right,” Jones said. “We moved quickly to Bud just because when we look at our roster and what our roster needs, he fits it. I’m a competitive guy. … Throughout that process (of hiring Budenholzer), Bud must have said ‘competitive’ 95 times in two minutes.

“I thought that was an area of our team where we could be better.”

https://arizonasports.com/story/3547772 ... ank-vogel/

I'm not going to type here and tell you that Vogel did a good job, because he didn't, but this quote says more about the team you put together than it does the coach.

[Split T]

I think you’re right, but much easier to fire a coach than the players

[Cap]

President of basketball operations and general manager James Jones explained why the move to fire Vogel was about timing. He also ultimately laid blame on Vogel, because he saw “inconsistency in our competitive nature.” As in, the coaching change was as simple as reaching its players, the Big Three and beyond.

“We needed to improve in a lot of areas. By and large, we just felt the timing to shift was right,” Jones said. “We moved quickly to Bud just because when we look at our roster and what our roster needs, he fits it. I’m a competitive guy. … Throughout that process (of hiring Budenholzer), Bud must have said ‘competitive’ 95 times in two minutes.

“I thought that was an area of our team where we could be better.”

https://arizonasports.com/story/3547772 ... ank-vogel/

I'm not going to type here and tell you that Vogel did a good job, because he didn't, but this quote says more about the team you put together than it does the coach.

You hired a coach because you liked the way he harped on a buzzword? :facepalm:

[Superbone]

President of basketball operations and general manager James Jones explained why the move to fire Vogel was about timing. He also ultimately laid blame on Vogel, because he saw “inconsistency in our competitive nature.” As in, the coaching change was as simple as reaching its players, the Big Three and beyond.

“We needed to improve in a lot of areas. By and large, we just felt the timing to shift was right,” Jones said. “We moved quickly to Bud just because when we look at our roster and what our roster needs, he fits it. I’m a competitive guy. … Throughout that process (of hiring Budenholzer), Bud must have said ‘competitive’ 95 times in two minutes.

“I thought that was an area of our team where we could be better.”

https://arizonasports.com/story/3547772 ... ank-vogel/

I'm not going to type here and tell you that Vogel did a good job, because he didn't, but this quote says more about the team you put together than it does the coach.

You hired a coach because you liked the way he harped on a buzzword? :facepalm:

Come on, Cap. Nowhere is it stated that this is the only reason Bud was hired.

[Cap]

President of basketball operations and general manager James Jones explained why the move to fire Vogel was about timing. He also ultimately laid blame on Vogel, because he saw “inconsistency in our competitive nature.” As in, the coaching change was as simple as reaching its players, the Big Three and beyond.

“We needed to improve in a lot of areas. By and large, we just felt the timing to shift was right,” Jones said. “We moved quickly to Bud just because when we look at our roster and what our roster needs, he fits it. I’m a competitive guy. … Throughout that process (of hiring Budenholzer), Bud must have said ‘competitive’ 95 times in two minutes.

“I thought that was an area of our team where we could be better.”

https://arizonasports.com/story/3547772 ... ank-vogel/

I'm not going to type here and tell you that Vogel did a good job, because he didn't, but this quote says more about the team you put together than it does the coach.

You hired a coach because you liked the way he harped on a buzzword? :facepalm:

Come on, Cap. Nowhere is it stated that this is the only reason Bud was hired.

It shouldn’t even be a reason.

[Mori Chu]

Not trying to pick on Cap, but I don't really see much point in micro-analyzing these kinds of comments from press conferences and interviews. We used to criticize DA and other players and coaches for this sort of thing, giving a quote that sounds a bit off. These interviews are mostly meaningless drivel and I don't much care what they say in these. I do think Coach Bud has generally spoken well about his thoughts on the team and how he wants to run it next season. Beyond that I don't much care. I agree with Cap that it shouldn't be very impressive for Bud to use one specific word a bunch of times, but I doubt that was really the main / only reason Jones liked and hired Bud. So it doesn't really mean much to me.

[O_Gardino]

Not trying to pick on Cap, but I don't really see much point in micro-analyzing these kinds of comments from press conferences and interviews. We used to criticize DA and other players and coaches for this sort of thing, giving a quote that sounds a bit off. These interviews are mostly meaningless drivel and I don't much care what they say in these. I do think Coach Bud has generally spoken well about his thoughts on the team and how he wants to run it next season. Beyond that I don't much care. I agree with Cap that it shouldn't be very impressive for Bud to use one specific word a bunch of times, but I doubt that was really the main / only reason Jones liked and hired Bud. So it doesn't really mean much to me.

I think it matters more coming from the GM. Jones should be able to clearly communicate organizational goals and reasons behind an important hiring decision. The "competitive" quote is a symptom of the problem with Jones.

[Cap]

I doubt that was really the main / only reason Jones liked and hired Bud.

It’s the one he cited when asked. Either it was a major consideration or he’s lying.

[Split T]

James Jones never says anything informative