We ranking players in this thread: Is LeBron better than 🇯🇴!?

[Charlie Smithy!]

So, I'm really not trying to come off as someone opposed to change just for the sake of change, but I kind of feel like the NBA I grew up watching in the early 90s is somewhat unrecognizable to me at this point, and on more than a few fronts.

Annnnnd would just like y'all's thoughts on why these changes occurred, and maybe just to see if (or how far lol) I'm off base.

Cuz at least least online, when I have ventured into social media in the form of Reddit and the artist formerly known as twitter, I feel like I see evidence that validates the take that most NBA fans don't actually watch the games. I've also seen that extrapolated out to that most NBA fans don't even like basketball, which I assume that's some sort of exaggeration?

And I know that it has really hit me in a weird place, especially, when I have read takes online that have said that the NBA is the soap opera for men, and that it is turning into something akin to the WWE.

Also, and I'm guessing this is a legitimate Trend that I just didn't notice until way late in the game, but I also can't identify with the people out there that are more fans of the players instead of teams. Is this at least somewhat of a function of the player empowerment era, along with how much movement there is in the league?

So yeah, I would just appreciate any thoughts or context as to how we got here, why, and how much of this change was inevitable or perhaps just exaggerated from, and by, online discourse.

[rhylek]

Well, in the past there was that guy, the village idiot, who has an opinion on everything.
And of course, you knew that and you just said whatever, it's just him.
But now, all the village idiots from the world gather on social media, and they are the most active.
There's also all the trolls. And don't forget all those who use it as a catharsis and use it to discharge their hatred.
More sad is that some of these people get a job on classic media.

Then there's the basketball thing... The disparity with refs, even in the same game, them acting like divas, some clearly trying to fix the outcome of the game.

I stay away from social media and being European, I'm not exposed to shit like Stephen A Smith.
I really hate the way the game is officiated and that the NBA does nada.

I have to admit I enjoyed the game more before the "efficient era". I liked the more physical game.
Because it was more physical there was no flopping, no abuse of the rules (foul baiting etc) . It was kind of simpler.
And more variety. I know it's not totally true but I get the feeling that players stand at the 3pts line and just pass around. Way less inside game. Top 10 play is just a pity in comparison to the 90s or the 2ks

---- Edited because it was 2AM for me and didn't notice auto-correct ate some words lol

[Superbone]

I stay away from social media and being European, I'm not exposed to shit like Stephen A Smith.

Luckily, he is not required viewing in the US either.

[The Bobster]

This seems like as goodd a place to post this as any -

I picked up a copy of THE BASKETBALL 100 which is by The Athletic and came out this week. Here's their choice for the top 20 player all-time - 1 Michael Jordan, 2 LeBron James, 3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 4 Bill Russell, 5 Magic Johnson, 6 Wilt Chamberlain, 7 Shaqille O'Neal, 8 Tim Duncan, 9 Larry Bird, 10 Kobe Bryant, 11 Hakeem Olajuwon, 12 Stephen Curry, 13 Oscar Robertson, 14 Kevin Durant, 15 Julius Erving, 16 Jerry West, 17 Karl Malone, 18 Kevin Garnett, 19 Moses Malone, 20 Dirk Nowitzki.

I don't have a huge problem with their list, but I would put Wilt and Bird higher, and include David Robinson and Nikola Jokic over Garnett and Nowitzki. A pretty good list otherwise, but ranking George Mikan is a problem. If you're considering how they played against their peers he's top 5.

In addition to O'Neal and Durant the othe Suns in the top 100 are - 23 Charles Barkley, 31 Chris Paul, 37 Jason Kidd, 39 Steve Nash, 84 Grant Hill, 85 Vince Carter, 88 Dennis Johnson. I think they put Barkley and Paul lower than I would have and Hill, Carter and DJ higher than I would have, Kidd and Nash seem about right.

I think having relatively short careers hurt Connie Hawkins, Amare Stoudemore, Kevin Johnson and Paul Westphal. And while Westphal, Hawkins, Walter Davis, Charlie Scott and Gail Goodrich are good enough for the Hall of Fame, they didn't make the list.

Overall it's a pretty good book and a great read for anybody wanting to learn more about the players they didn't get to see in person. (the only ones on the list that I didn't see play didn't play beyond 1970 - Bill Russell, Bob Pettit, George Mikan, Bob Cousy, Dolph Schayes, Sam Jones and Paul Arizin. I only have a vague recollection of guys like Elgin Baylor and Hal Greer)

[The Bobster]

I stay away from social media and being European, I'm not exposed to shit like Stephen A Smith.

Luckily, he is not required viewing in the US either.

Thank God they didn't try to shoehorn him into Inside the NBA!

[rhylek]

To me, it seems weird to have Karl "Elbow" Malone, Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki in the top-20.
I'd put Barkley, D.Robinson, Stockton or even Kidd before them.

[Split T]

Probably just waiting on Jokic and Giannis, but they are both absolutely top 20 guys already…Jokic is probably top 10 already

[Ring_Wanted]

Bird definitely too low. And I would put only Jordan and Lebron over Wilt.

[Split T]

I just leave all the pre-merger guys out of my rankings(at least avoiding giving them a specific rank).

My top 10 would be: Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Curry, Shaq, Jokic, KD, Duncan. Then I give Wilt and Russell honorary top 10 status. Oscar and West are the same for me. I don’t rank them, but they can have honorary top 25 status.

[The Bobster]

I would Probably go Jordan, Wilt, LeBron, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Bird, Duncan, O'Neal, Olajuwon.

Of those mentioned, they had.....
Robinson #21
Giannis #22
Barkley #23
Jokic #28
Stockton #33
Kidd #37

I look at Garnett and Nowitzki and wonder how anybody would pick them over Robinson, Giannis and Jokic. And I don't know where I'd put Barkley, but he seems awfully low too.

[The Bobster]

I just leave all the pre-merger guys out of my rankings(at least avoiding giving them a specific rank).

My top 10 would be: Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Curry, Shaq, Jokic, KD, Duncan. Then I give Wilt and Russell honorary top 10 status. Oscar and West are the same for me. I don’t rank them, but they can have honorary top 25 status.

I include Wilt, Russell, West and Oscar because I feel pretty comfortable having seen 3 of the 4 of them play. BUt I can see why you would start at the merger (1976). Erving drops down out of the top 20 if you ignore his ABA years.

the top 10 from ESPN's list in 2022 was - Jordan, James, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Duncan, Robertson, Bryant

[The Bobster]

When I was a kid in the mid-70s the discussion came down to Russell vs. Wilt. Then Kareem entered the discussion in the mid-80s. Jordan was elevated to #1 by a lot of people around the time they won their first three straight titles. LeBron has worked his way into the conversation in part because he's maintained his level of play for so long.

When Kareem was a player I think one thing that hurt his was how methodical he was. He could score points so easily with his sky hook, and he really didn't look like he had the intensity of a Dave Cowens or a Moses Malone. They looked like they were playing hard. Kareem sometimes didn't, but when he was young, and a great rebounder, he was a monster. Jordan and James didn't have this problem because they were't 7-footers and they did spectacular things athletically. Jordan in particular, had intensity that was off the charts. He was almost maniacal in psyching himself up for an opponent (both offensively and defensively) and whether you were Dan Majerle in the Finals or Toni Kukoc in the Olympics you were going to feel his wrath. James can't match that, but he's bigger and stronger than Jordan which made him just about as unguardable. Plus he's played about 8 seasons longer than Jordan so he's compiled numbers that may go unchallenged for years.

[Split T]

To me there’s no question LeBron has the most impressive career from beginning to end, but he’s never going to be able to convince enough people he was better at his peak than Jordan was. Because of that, he’ll never be the consensus GOAT. I lean to Jordan being better at his peak, but it’s hard to compare as I think LeBron played against better players.

But back to the list, Jokic at 28 is crazy to me. He’s got 3 MVP’s, 1 Title, 1 FMVP, and he’s an early front runner for a 4th MVP. He won that title with a mid-market team as well. I credit those Denver/Milwaukee titles more than say KG winning in Boston.

[Ring_Wanted]

Maybe impressive by volume, like Kareem. But Jordan's dominance was something else. We are talking about 10 times best scorer, with DPOY capabilities. Unmatched competitiveness. Essentially zero flaws to his game, specially considering his era regarding 3pt shots. Then you watch his highlights and, at least to me, there is no question.

[ShelC]

I think LeBron is the greatest basketball player, Jordan's the greatest winner, Shaq is the most dominant. What LBJ's done for 20+ years is insane but I don't think he ever had the single-minded obsession of Jordan or even Kobe. I don't think I'd put Magic or Bird in the convo for greatest but they're obviously up there. I just look at MJ as the beginning of the "modern" era with Bird and Magic being the tale end of the older generations.

Bigs never really get their due - Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Jokic, Shaq, Nurk, Russell. Their style of play isn't always appreciated or aesthetically pleasing even as good as they are or end up being.

[The Bobster]

I just look at MJ as the beginning of the "modern" era with Bird and Magic being the tale end of the older generations.

You do know that Magic and Bird entered the league only 5 years before Jordan, right?

[ShelC]

Yea but they played against the older generations thru the 80s and owned that decade. Jordan ushered in that new era of NBA basketball IMO and owned the 90s leading to the newer generation in the late 90s/early 2000s.

[The Bobster]

There have been several rule changes to change play, the most significant was the shot clock in 1954. The game from the first 10 years of the league would barely resemble what we see now.

1946-47 to 1953-54 - Clock Era implemented (1954) - the shot clock (along with the addition of athletic big men like Russell and Chamberlain, made lumbering players like Mikan obsolete) and made teams look for fast breaks as shooting percentages increased dramatically.

1954-55 to 1965-66 - Integration Era - the number of teams and rules were fairly consistent as the league moved from smaller cities (Minneapolis, Rochester, Ft. Wayne, Syracuse) to bigger ones (Los Angeles, San Francisco, Cincinnati, Detroit), the league also became more integrated with the addition of stars like Maurice Stokes (1955), Bill Russell (1956), Wilt Chamberlain (1959) and Oscar Robertson (1960) - causing the quality of play to increase

1966-67 to 1978-79 - Expansion Era (Chicago in 1966, Seattle & San Diego in 1967, Phoenix & Milwaukee in 1968, Buffalo, Cleveland & Portland in 1970, New Orleans in 1974, ABA/NBA merger in 1976) - the league increased from 10 teams to 22 (petty much relegating a thriving Eastern League to low minor league status)

1979-80 to 1993-94 - Emphasis on defense - 3-Point line added (1979), 3rd official added (1988) - Scoring began to decrease until it reached a league low in 1998-99 - the league, under League Counsel-turned-Commissioner David Sterne (1984) spent most of their time trying to fix problems with violence, drugs and collective bargaining.

1994-95 to 2011-12 - Emphasis on offense - Rules enacted to to increase scoring (hand-checking rules changes, 3-point line moved in) (1994), defensive contact rules revised (2001) - scoring begins to increase beginning in 1999-00 - after the rise of the "Bad Boy" Pistons league executives decided to enact rules to promote offense

2012-13 to present - Three-point Era - Block/charge restricted line added and flopping fines implemented (2012) - an emphasis on analytics causes teams to shoot more 3-point field goals and players who can defend multiple positions.

[Mori Chu]

In general I think Kareem is overrated. I watched part of his career and while he has gaudy stats, I think I am more impressed by what I've read of Russell. His former teammates would drive through a brick wall for him; the ultimate winner and teammate. I think my top 10 would be something like:

1 MJ
2 Lebron
3 Russell
4 Magic
5 Kareem
6 Wilt
7 Bird
8 Shaq
9 Kobe
10 Duncan

[LazarusLong]

There have been several rule changes to change play, the most significant was the shot clock in 1954. The game from the first 10 years of the league would barely resemble what we see now.

1946-47 to 1953-54 - Clock Era implemented (1954) - the shot clock (along with the addition of athletic big men like Russell and Chamberlain, made lumbering players like Mikan obsolete) and made teams look for fast breaks as shooting percentages increased dramatically.

1954-55 to 1965-66 - Integration Era - the number of teams and rules were fairly consistent as the league moved from smaller cities (Minneapolis, Rochester, Ft. Wayne, Syracuse) to bigger ones (Los Angeles, San Francisco, Cincinnati, Detroit), the league also became more integrated with the addition of stars like Maurice Stokes (1955), Bill Russell (1956), Wilt Chamberlain (1959) and Oscar Robertson (1960) - causing the quality of play to increase

1966-67 to 1978-79 - Expansion Era (Chicago in 1966, Seattle & San Diego in 1967, Phoenix & Milwaukee in 1968, Buffalo, Cleveland & Portland in 1970, New Orleans in 1974, ABA/NBA merger in 1976) - the league increased from 10 teams to 22 (petty much relegating a thriving Eastern League to low minor league status)

1979-80 to 1993-94 - Emphasis on defense - 3-Point line added (1979), 3rd official added (1988) - Scoring began to decrease until it reached a league low in 1998-99 - the league, under League Counsel-turned-Commissioner David Sterne (1984) spent most of their time trying to fix problems with violence, drugs and collective bargaining.

1994-95 to 2011-12 - Emphasis on offense - Rules enacted to to increase scoring (hand-checking rules changes, 3-point line moved in) (1994), defensive contact rules revised (2001) - scoring begins to increase beginning in 1999-00 - after the rise of the "Bad Boy" Pistons league executives decided to enact rules to promote offense

2012-13 to present - Three-point Era - Block/charge restricted line added and flopping fines implemented (2012) - an emphasis on analytics causes teams to shoot more 3-point field goals and players who can defend multiple positions.

Nice take, Bobs.

I would add Elgin Baylor to the Integration Era. Before his knee surgeries, Baylor was an onstoppable offensive force.
Nice mention of Stokes, a great all around talent whose career was tragically cut short.