I thought KD was fantastic last night and the main reason we had a chance…he was out of the offense in the 1st Q and we were down 10…we outscored them from the 2nd Q on and KD dropped 34 on 12/18…ya he had a really bad turnover, but that was his only turnover of the game. JJJ was too big for him in the post, but he did have 5 blocks. Bad rebounding and some shaky shooting was the reason we lost.
We're not saying otherwise. Just that the timing of that one turnover was the worst imaginable.
Was in response to this:
gums up the offense, sloppy turnovers, some defensive mistakes and lapses in effort, doesn't actually help us win
We might have to admit that we are just bad rebounders and defenders…it’s easier to blame it on effort and effort is definitely part of it…but when it comes down to it, we just don’t have enough defenders/rebounders. It’s not going to fix itself.
There is no excuse for leaving good shooters WIDE open from three. None. That's blown assignments and not paying attention.
We might have to admit that we are just bad rebounders and defenders…it’s easier to blame it on effort and effort is definitely part of it…but when it comes down to it, we just don’t have enough defenders/rebounders. It’s not going to fix itself.
There is no excuse for leaving good shooters WIDE open from three. None. That's blown assignments and not paying attention.
The grizzlies shot 30% from 3…not why we lost.
I felt we lost it in the first quarter when they made a high percentage of threes. Many wide open. It was all battling back from there. First half defense is why we lost. Seemed to get a little better in the second half.
I'm glad Van Gundy didn't hold back on railing on our horrible defense all night.
That said, it’s impressive it was even that close.
If we cleaned that stuff up, we'd be a top third team. But, we haven't all season long. Way too many wide open threes and easy access to the basket. Not to mention we suck at getting the damn rebound, giving multiple opportunities.
Note that you're saying that our perimeter defense (3s), our interior defense (easy access to the basket), and our rebounding are all bad. That is literally all that defense is!! When it comes to defense, we are bad at everything there is to be bad at.
I'm glad Van Gundy didn't hold back on railing on our horrible defense all night.
That said, it’s impressive it was even that close.
If we cleaned that stuff up, we'd be a top third team. But, we haven't all season long. Way too many wide open threes and easy access to the basket. Not to mention we suck at getting the damn rebound, giving multiple opportunities.
Note that you're saying that our perimeter defense (3s), our interior defense (easy access to the basket), and our rebounding are all bad. That is literally all that defense is!! When it comes to defense, we are bad at everything there is to be bad at.
I can't argue with that. But then at times, it is much better. Like in the 2nd half last night. This team either can't or refuses to put in the effort required to do it for four quarters. Even just average defense would go a long way.
KD's overrated as a defender IMO. I get he has to carry the offense and is a dominant scorer but even at the start of the game he's never pressing up defensively on his man or in any kind of defensive stance. He plays off, stands flatfooted and only reacts when he thinks his man is making a move.
I'm pretty much out on Bud at this point. Bol isn't changing the season for us and I don't care what his numbers are. He did this last year when Vogel decided to use him and then after a few games his flaws are exposed and you realize he's not impacting winning. There's no reason Dunn shouldn't be getting 30mpg. We got a real lift from him in the starting lineup and looked like things might be clicking, now he's out of the rotation. Then Bud plays TyTy out of nowhere. I get the roster isn't perfect but we've got more talent than we're showing. Others have pointed out, Vogel had us 12th last year in defense with Nurk starting and we won 49 games. You can't be experimenting with lineups and rotations 50 games into the season.
Agreed on Bud. I think we need to face facts and realise we probably chased a good coach out of town and replaced him with an inferior one. Vogel did more with a roster that was less talented.
There just doesn't seem to be a vision or strategy to Bud's coaching, it's just a case of throw things out there and hope that they work. I'm not averse to starting Bol but the fact we are at this point of the season when he's barely played in the first 50 games just smacks of desperation. TyTy getting minutes over Dunn is ridiculous, as is Tyus remaining in the starting lineup when Beal was relegated to the bench. It seems that wasn't a move to get him to waive his NTC as they apparently never broached the subject with him. It's therefore puzzling that you would care more about the feelings of a guy who signed for the vet minimum and has never been a starter in his career over a guy you're paying $50 million and hyping up as a member of your 'big 3'.
We might have to admit that we are just bad rebounders and defenders…it’s easier to blame it on effort and effort is definitely part of it…but when it comes down to it, we just don’t have enough defenders/rebounders. It’s not going to fix itself.
There is no excuse for leaving good shooters WIDE open from three. None. That's blown assignments and not paying attention.
The grizzlies shot 30% from 3…not why we lost.
I felt we lost it in the first quarter when they made a high percentage of threes. Many wide open. It was all battling back from there. First half defense is why we lost. Seemed to get a little better in the second half.
KD's overrated as a defender IMO. I get he has to carry the offense and is a dominant scorer but even at the start of the game he's never pressing up defensively on his man or in any kind of defensive stance. He plays off, stands flatfooted and only reacts when he thinks his man is making a move.
I'm pretty much out on Bud at this point. Bol isn't changing the season for us and I don't care what his numbers are. He did this last year when Vogel decided to use him and then after a few games his flaws are exposed and you realize he's not impacting winning. There's no reason Dunn shouldn't be getting 30mpg. We got a real lift from him in the starting lineup and looked like things might be clicking, now he's out of the rotation. Then Bud plays TyTy out of nowhere. I get the roster isn't perfect but we've got more talent than we're showing. Others have pointed out, Vogel had us 12th last year in defense with Nurk starting and we won 49 games. You can't be experimenting with lineups and rotations 50 games into the season.
Agreed on Bud. I think we need to face facts and realise we probably chased a good coach out of town and replaced him with an inferior one. Vogel did more with a roster that was less talented.
There just doesn't seem to be a vision or strategy to Bud's coaching, it's just a case of throw things out there and hope that they work. I'm not averse to starting Bol but the fact we are at this point of the season when he's barely played in the first 50 games just smacks of desperation. TyTy getting minutes over Dunn is ridiculous, as is Tyus remaining in the starting lineup when Beal was relegated to the bench. It seems that wasn't a move to get him to waive his NTC as they apparently never broached the subject with him. It's therefore puzzling that you would care more about the feelings of a guy who signed for the vet minimum and has never been a starter in his career over a guy you're paying $50 million and hyping up as a member of your 'big 3'.
A promise is a promise, man. Beal was made no such promise.
Ya it’s as simple as we promised Tyus if he signed for the vet min that we’d start him all year…do you break that promise knowing no player will ever trust you again? Or do you keep it and hope in the future it works out better for you when you promise someone?
Ya it’s as simple as we promised Tyus if he signed for the vet min that we’d start him all year…do you break that promise knowing no player will ever trust you again? Or do you keep it and hope in the future it works out better for you when you promise someone?
Yeah, I get that we promised him that at the start of the season but since then we've tried to trade KD behind his back and benched a former all-star who was playing better than the guy we made said promise to.
Free agents are less likely to come to us because of the mishandling of those two scenarios not because we decided to bench our vet minimum guy because he's crap. That's simply a fallacy. He's done nothing to earn that level of loyalty from us with his performances this year and us continually playing him is only hurting his chances of getting more money from another team. He's being set up to fail.
Free agents sign for two things - money and winning. An agent may steer clients away from an org if they have a bad relationship or have been burned, but most understand the business and do what's right by their clients. Can't take things personal.
Ya it’s as simple as we promised Tyus if he signed for the vet min that we’d start him all year…do you break that promise knowing no player will ever trust you again? Or do you keep it and hope in the future it works out better for you when you promise someone?
Yeah, I get that we promised him that at the start of the season but since then we've tried to trade KD behind his back and benched a former all-star who was playing better than the guy we made said promise to.
Free agents are less likely to come to us because of the mishandling of those two scenarios not because we decided to bench our vet minimum guy because he's crap. That's simply a fallacy. He's done nothing to earn that level of loyalty from us with his performances this year and us continually playing him is only hurting his chances of getting more money from another team. He's being set up to fail.
Dude, I'd hate to get a promise from you knowing that you'll go back on it if it's for your own betterment.
Ya it’s as simple as we promised Tyus if he signed for the vet min that we’d start him all year…do you break that promise knowing no player will ever trust you again? Or do you keep it and hope in the future it works out better for you when you promise someone?
Yeah, I get that we promised him that at the start of the season but since then we've tried to trade KD behind his back and benched a former all-star who was playing better than the guy we made said promise to.
Free agents are less likely to come to us because of the mishandling of those two scenarios not because we decided to bench our vet minimum guy because he's crap. That's simply a fallacy. He's done nothing to earn that level of loyalty from us with his performances this year and us continually playing him is only hurting his chances of getting more money from another team. He's being set up to fail.
Dude, I'd hate to get a promise from you knowing that you'll go back on it if it's for your own betterment.
So using your logic you'd continue to start him even if he registered 1 point, 1 assist and 1 rebound every game for the rest of the season simply because you made him a promise? That's absurd, and a great way to alienate your star players. As Shel said, it's a business at the end of the day.
That's being too tough on Book, if you ask me. I agree that Book was setting guys up for WIDE OPEN 3s over and over all night that were bricked hard. Tyty was so disappointing.
Ya it’s as simple as we promised Tyus if he signed for the vet min that we’d start him all year…do you break that promise knowing no player will ever trust you again? Or do you keep it and hope in the future it works out better for you when you promise someone?
Yeah, I get that we promised him that at the start of the season but since then we've tried to trade KD behind his back and benched a former all-star who was playing better than the guy we made said promise to.
Free agents are less likely to come to us because of the mishandling of those two scenarios not because we decided to bench our vet minimum guy because he's crap. That's simply a fallacy. He's done nothing to earn that level of loyalty from us with his performances this year and us continually playing him is only hurting his chances of getting more money from another team. He's being set up to fail.
He turned down an extra 10 million dollars to sign with us because we promised him the starting position. I disagree that he’s done nothing to earn that level of loyalty.
He’s also not been some awful player like you are implying. He’s just a poor fit because we have no one to cover him defensively. He’s still putting up 11/6, taking care of the ball, and shooting 41% from 3. Beal was just as problematic in the starting lineup.
When it comes down to it, the team is critically flawed and there’s really zero chance at fixing it by changing up lineups…no point in risking breaking that promise. If you were going to bench him, you should have traded him to somewhere he wanted to go.
It just shows how desperate we were for a point guard, that we had to promise him a starting spot just in order to land someone we thought was capable of being a starting PG.
Ya it’s as simple as we promised Tyus if he signed for the vet min that we’d start him all year…do you break that promise knowing no player will ever trust you again? Or do you keep it and hope in the future it works out better for you when you promise someone?
Yeah, I get that we promised him that at the start of the season but since then we've tried to trade KD behind his back and benched a former all-star who was playing better than the guy we made said promise to.
Free agents are less likely to come to us because of the mishandling of those two scenarios not because we decided to bench our vet minimum guy because he's crap. That's simply a fallacy. He's done nothing to earn that level of loyalty from us with his performances this year and us continually playing him is only hurting his chances of getting more money from another team. He's being set up to fail.
He turned down an extra 10 million dollars to sign with us because we promised him the starting position. I disagree that he’s done nothing to earn that level of loyalty.
He’s also not been some awful player like you are implying. He’s just a poor fit because we have no one to cover him defensively. He’s still putting up 11/6, taking care of the ball, and shooting 41% from 3. Beal was just as problematic in the starting lineup.
When it comes down to it, the team is critically flawed and there’s really zero chance at fixing it by changing up lineups…no point in risking breaking that promise. If you were going to bench him, you should have traded him to somewhere he wanted to go.
Fair points and we can agree to disagree.
On the point about him coming here to start, we shouldn't forget he started 66 games in Washington last season. His averages across most categories including 3P% have gone down this year except his turnover rate which has increased markedly. Admittedly it's still low compared to others but his numbers have regressed from last season pretty much across the board. I agree he hasn't been awful but is a bad fit who is a cone on defence and doesn't put up the sort of numbers that make him impactful enough in the starting lineup.
Perhaps that's down to the way he's being used (or not) on offence but it feels like he's a passenger out there most of the time.
His 3 pt percentage has dropped from 41.4% to 40.8%…that’s nothing. In fact his efg% and TS% have gone up because he’s shooting more 3s. I don’t know for sure, but I imagine his ast rate dropped and turnover rate increased because he’s spending more time off ball. Honestly feels like a lot of his turnovers(which are still very low) happen when he’s trying to get the ball to Book or KD so he can go stand in the corner. He’s basically the same player he’s always been.
I don't mind us breaking some promise to a minimum level backup PG we told could start. There's no bait and switch here where we tricked him into signing and then threw him on the bench after training camp. It's been 50 games and we aren't winning. The bigger question for me is, what's the plan if he is brought off the bench? Are we just scrambling for answers like we seem to be doing or is there someone we can turn to who can provide better play and help us win? We benched Beal, benched Nurk, have swapped Dunn for Royce for Grayson for Bol. Is there a difference in who we start? Or should we keep starting him and just cut back on his minutes?
