NBA Draft Prospects Discussion

[Superbone]

No one asked me, but tanking is losing games on purpose. It means if you hold out someone healthy in the hopes of losing the game, you are tanking. It's a bit of a contradiction in my mind. I'll not openly root for the Suns to play poorly and lose a game, yet I'm fine with them sitting veterans in order to develop younger players once the season is lost. Once those younger players are on the court I'll root for them to win. It is, by my own definition, outright tanking though. I guess that means I'm pro-tanking in a way.

That's a solid take and that's where I'm at. It's up to upper management to hold players out. It's up to the coach to try to win games with whomever he has at his disposal.

[Indy]

No one asked me, but tanking is losing games on purpose. It means if you hold out someone healthy in the hopes of losing the game, you are tanking. It's a bit of a contradiction in my mind. I'll not openly root for the Suns to play poorly and lose a game, yet I'm fine with them sitting veterans in order to develop younger players once the season is lost. Once those younger players are on the court I'll root for them to win. It is, by my own definition, outright tanking though. I guess that means I'm pro-tanking in a way.

That's a solid take and that's where I'm at. It's up to upper management to hold players out. It's up to the coach to try to win games with whomever he has at his disposal.

So it is not up to the coach to develop players for the future, if it means a smaller chance of winning right now?

[Superbone]

No one asked me, but tanking is losing games on purpose. It means if you hold out someone healthy in the hopes of losing the game, you are tanking. It's a bit of a contradiction in my mind. I'll not openly root for the Suns to play poorly and lose a game, yet I'm fine with them sitting veterans in order to develop younger players once the season is lost. Once those younger players are on the court I'll root for them to win. It is, by my own definition, outright tanking though. I guess that means I'm pro-tanking in a way.

That's a solid take and that's where I'm at. It's up to upper management to hold players out. It's up to the coach to try to win games with whomever he has at his disposal.

So it is not up to the coach to develop players for the future, if it means a smaller chance of winning right now?

That's a gray area. I'd say that's up to upper management. The coach is there to win but he also has to follow instructions from above. And of course you want your bring your young players up right along the way. I'd look at the Spurs as a team that does it right.

[Indy]

No one asked me, but tanking is losing games on purpose. It means if you hold out someone healthy in the hopes of losing the game, you are tanking. It's a bit of a contradiction in my mind. I'll not openly root for the Suns to play poorly and lose a game, yet I'm fine with them sitting veterans in order to develop younger players once the season is lost. Once those younger players are on the court I'll root for them to win. It is, by my own definition, outright tanking though. I guess that means I'm pro-tanking in a way.

That's a solid take and that's where I'm at. It's up to upper management to hold players out. It's up to the coach to try to win games with whomever he has at his disposal.

So it is not up to the coach to develop players for the future, if it means a smaller chance of winning right now?

That's a gray area. I'd say that's up to upper management. The coach is there to win but he also has to follow instructions from above. And of course you want your bring your young players up right along the way. I'd look at the Spurs as a team that does it right.

Are you saying that it is up to upper management to develop players? Or it is up to them to tell the coach to develop players? Either way I disagree (big surprise today!).

[Indy]

Oh, and it is very different with the Spurs, since the Head Coach is the guy that hired and promoted the GM.

[Ring_Wanted]

I guess it just depends on how you define tanking. I think of tanking as intentionally trying to lose games. To me, that is different than not trying to win games at all costs. Is it tanking when a team decides to give a player another week to recover from an injury, even if the docs say he is good to go today? I don't think so, but it seems you would, Ring. Am I right about that?

By the way, can you tell this season was a complete lost-cause for us, if we are arguing about what tanking is?

Intentionally trying to lose games and not using everything at your disposal to win are two very close definitions for this phenom. It all means that sometimes you consider that there is a greater good other than winning a game. But I reckon there are nuances and preserving a player's health very well can be one of them, just only to a certain point. The doc clears you to play, you may take a little more of time as it is customary, but throwing away a chunk of the season because the team is headed nowhere is using the injury as an excuse, in my opinion, and indeed one of the typical measures used by teams wanting to tank.

As for our season, of course it is a lost one, but being hit by the injury bug doesn't make you instantly a tanker. You need to actually decline to use your best shot at winning and I don't think the 15-16 Suns have 'saved' anything.

[Hermen]

Heat refuse to play Bosh, they must be tanking
Disclaimer: I know nothing.
I call any form of not trying your hardest to win tanking. I don't care who decides to go for it and I also have no problem with it. I don't think it's just for the lottery, even if the draft wheel was implemented I think that teams would often just play young guys more, despite losing more games. I think people just bitch about it because as it is now, you get rewarded for it in the draft. I don't think anyone would care for other teams losing in the wheel system. I liked the wheel system. Tanking is like hacking a poor free-throw shooter. Not attractive, but according to the rules and often a good play. If the league doesn't like it, change the rules. But I can't fault teams for doing what they think is best and usually people think championships are best.
I checked finals mvp winners for the last 25ish years and if I got it right there were only 4 players in that span who won finals mvp for teams that didn't draft them: Billups, James (twice) and Iguodala (with Curry being the best on that team). So best way to win a championship seems to be to draft and develop your best player. That's why I have no more problem with what the Philly was doing under Hinkie than with what Spurs did to get Duncan. All roads to a championship are very unlikely.

[Indy]

Heat refuse to play Bosh, they must be tanking
Disclaimer: I know nothing.
I call any form of not trying your hardest to win tanking. I don't care who decides to go for it and I also have no problem with it. I don't think it's just for the lottery, even if the draft wheel was implemented I think that teams would often just play young guys more, despite losing more games. I think people just bitch about it because as it is now, you get rewarded for it in the draft. I don't think anyone would care for other teams losing in the wheel system. I liked the wheel system. Tanking is like hacking a poor free-throw shooter. Not attractive, but according to the rules and often a good play. If the league doesn't like it, change the rules. But I can't fault teams for doing what they think is best and usually people think championships are best.
I checked finals mvp winners for the last 25ish years and if I got it right there were only 4 players in that span who won finals mvp for teams that didn't draft them: Billups, James (twice) and Iguodala (with Curry being the best on that team). So best way to win a championship seems to be to draft and develop your best player. That's why I have no more problem with what the Philly was doing under Hinkie than with what Spurs did to get Duncan. All roads to a championship are very unlikely.

Solid post

[Ring_Wanted]

Heat refuse to play Bosh, they must be tanking

haha
Play him till he drops dead for integrity.

[Danimal]

I promise I won't do this for every player but here is a Brightside breakdown of Jaylen Brown, who according to mocks will likely be taken around the range of our 1st pick

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2016/ ... unpolished

good Athletic tools but limited offensive polish. Could be a good 3&D + transition guy but is the worth it from a likely top 7 pick?

Was keen to know people's thoughts on Mr Brown

[carey]

I don't like him that high. I'm going to be bummed if we walk away with him after a season of misery. Not to mention I feel like we already have our SF of the future on the roster. I just don't like his game. It's predicated on bulldozing to the rim and that's about it. His midrange game is suspect and long range game is nonexistent.

[Gladiator]

FWIW, Sports Illustrated posted a mock with us taking Henry Ellenson at #4, Denzel Valentine at #13 and Thon Maker at #28

http://www.si.com/nba/2016/05/06/nba-mo ... en-simmons

HENRY ELLENSON, MARQUETTE
Ellenson may not rise this high in June, but the idea of a stretch-four is a powerful drug in the NBA right now. And the case for Ellenson here is as much about what Phoenix needs. The Suns have three capable guards, TJ Warren at small forward, and two centers (Alex Len, Tyson Chandler) who were awkwardly playing together by the end of the year. In other words, the Suns need a power forward, preferably one who won't throw towels at the coach and attack Archie Goodwin. This is why Dragan Bender would be a dream for them, but it's also why Ellenson makes a lot of sense as a consolation if they can't get Bender.

DENZEL VALENTINE, MICHIGAN STATE
Valentine could vault into the top 10 by the time we do this in June. Over four years at Michigan State he turned himself into an excellent three-point shooter and one of the best defenders in college basketball. He can pass, he can rebound, he's a winner. This draft is full of guys who could conceivably, theoretically turn into stars. Valentine's future as a valuable rotation player on a good team feels more certain than almost all of them.

THON MAKER, ORANGEVILLE PREP
Maker doesn't have first round talent, but the idea of him—crazy combination of size and skill, internet urban legend, high schooler who found a loophole into the draft—may be enough to sell some team on investing four years to see what he could become. And with three first round picks, the Suns can afford to get weird.

[carey]

I was fairly low on Ulis because of his size, but the more I read about him the more I like. He was the SEC defensive player of the year, he can apply on-ball pressure which is something we need. I thought he was IT3 2.0 (as far as a shared weakness) but I don't think that was quite right.

So my thought is to take Bender at 3 or 4. Move Knight for That Young and draft Ulis at 13.

Bledsoe-Ulis
Booker-Goodwin-B.B.?
Warren-Tucker
Young-Bender-Leuer?
Chandler-Len (or vice versa.)

[Indy]

I don't like him that high. I'm going to be bummed if we walk away with him after a season of misery. Not to mention I feel like we already have our SF of the future on the roster. I just don't like his game. It's predicated on bulldozing to the rim and that's about it. His midrange game is suspect and long range game is nonexistent.

So about the same as our SF of the future before he was drafted?

As much as Warren's proclivity towards catch and finish opportunities around the rim makes him unique, his shot distribution is what really stands out on paper. The talented forward made a below average 32.2% of his jump shots, but finished at a group-leading 70% clip around the rim, despite lacking elite athleticism.

[OE32]

I was fairly low on Ulis because of his size, but the more I read about him the more I like. He was the SEC defensive player of the year, he can apply on-ball pressure which is something we need. I thought he was IT3 2.0 (as far as a shared weakness) but I don't think that was quite right.

So my thought is to take Bender at 3 or 4. Move Knight for That Young and draft Ulis at 13.

Bledsoe-Ulis
Booker-Goodwin-B.B.?
Warren-Tucker
Young-Bender-Leuer?
Chandler-Len (or vice versa.)

I like Ulis too, but at 160 pounds, I'm not sure he can ever work as a starter. Do we really want to spend a lotto pick on a career back-up who can only play one position?

I'm hoping Luwawu is there at 13. I think he could play next to either Booker or Warren, which is a huge plus. Supposedly a good defender, which make him the only guy on the roster who can guard shooting guards. Also appears to be a pretty good passer. He fits perfectly.

I think we end up with one of Simmons, Ingram, Bender or Ellenson with our top pick. I think Ellenson projects as a stretch big. Low percentage his freshman year, but his release is smooth, high and quick. He can pull up and put it on the deck.

Looks like we both want Thad on the team. I just think we can get him at a better price - Goodwin, #28 and a couple seconds.

[carey]

So about the same as our SF of the future before he was drafted?

Did they classify that deadly floater as "around the rim?" I assumed that was midrange but maybe not.

[Indy]

So about the same as our SF of the future before he was drafted?

Did they classify that deadly floater as "around the rim?" I assumed that was midrange but maybe not.

Fair question. I would assume anything under 10 feet is around the rim.

[Split T]

I see jaylen brown being a Corey Maggette type player, not someone I want to spend a top ten pick on. I do like Tyler ulis, but I'd rather use that wash pick on Valentine, luwawa or sabonis.

[Shabazz]

I think I'm Team Ingram now instead of Team Simmons. Kind of hoping we get the second pick.

[Indy]

What made you switch sides?