Amar'e Retires

[Mori Chu]

Who cares what team a player retires "as"? I still loved his years here and will always remember him as a great Sun. We were also correct to let him leave in 2010 because of all the injury risks that proved to be totally founded. He had one (*1*) good year ever again after he left us, and they had to pay $100,000,000 for it. I can still remember 2003-2010 fondly and he can say he's retiring a Knick all he wants.

I remember we had quite a discussion when Sarver decided not to sign him for the $100,000,000 contract. In theory you and others were correct to a point. However I argued, at the time, that we would not be able to replace him and that I wanted to see that group from 2010 stay together, many of us really liked that team. By not signing him we made Nash irrelevant and ultimately it cost Gentry his job as well. That is after Sarver basically did not have D'Antoni's back and he left town. Another idiotic decision by Sarver.

Well you can twist it any way you want but we have not made the playoffs since we let him go. Only once since we let D'Antoni go. We have lost fan base and have basically been irrelevant since his departure. At this point a championship run is not even under consideration. The bigger question is, in what decade we will next make the playoffs?
The argument was that we needed to build a championship team and that keeping Amare would hinder that endeavor. How has that worked out?

Surely he probably would not have been effective for the entire contract but I expect that we would have been relevant for at least 2 years, maybe more with the aide of our medical staff. We surely would have been far more fun to watch, when he was healthy, than the crap we have put on the floor since his departure. Who knows maybe Nash would have retired a Sun.

The really sad thing was that we kept Nash around. We should have dumped him at the same time.

IMO, Amare would have been a perfect signing for this group for the next couple of years. I wonder who stopped that from happening, Sarver or Wooden?

The cause of all of our problems always seem to lead back to poor decisions by our ass clown owner, Robert Sarver. That is the main reason that I have little faith in Wooden being our coach.

The counter a lot of people made/make is that re-signing Amare for $100m would have been better than the Childress/Warrick/H*** T******u puu-puu platter that we signed instead. And that is absolutely true. It's a false dichotomy logical fallacy to say that those were our only two options, but I definitely would have preferred to keep Amare than the crud we signed in his place.

I don't think it is fair to say "we haven't been good since Amare left" (and therefore should have kept him). We haven't been good since he left because of dozens of questionable management decisions in the intervening years. Disenfranchising Dragic. Trading Dragic and IT for minimal return. Betting the house on a point guard with no ligaments in his knees who doesn't really pass the ball well. Doubling down on the 2-PG and 3-PG offense. Signing a bunch of "asset" players without thinking much about the overall team we were building. Letting the Morris twins walk all over us and not handling them smoothly. Hiring a coach without doing any interviews. On and on. None of that is about Amare.

[LazarusLong]

Rebuilding itself wasn't wrong. It was the way it was attempted, such as bringing in Josh Childress and then Hedu Turkoglu as a power forward (?!??!?).
That was when management started jumping the shark.

[JustWinBaby]

I remember we had quite a discussion when Sarver decided not to sign him for the $100,000,000 contract. In theory you and others were correct to a point. However I argued, at the time, that we would not be able to replace him and that I wanted to see that group from 2010 stay together, many of us really liked that team.

I was firmly in the camp that thought it was time to rebuild. In retrospect, I think I was wrong. Even if we only got one more great year out of Ama're and Steve together, I would want that over what we got.

That is my point entirely. We were so close, IMO in 2010, I wanted another run at a title. I remember the chemistry Robin Lopez had with Amare. He finally had that defensive center to help on the defensive end that we were missing during those great years. We made it interesting in 2010 even though Robin was injured for most of the playoffs. I wanted to see a healthy a more mature Robin paired with Amare in the paint going forward.

The rebuild was a folly. When it was suggested that we should not pay Amare I definitely understood the injury concerns. However when I looked around the league there was NO ONE legitimately available to replace Amare. I would have even taken a marginal replacement. We still have not replaced him. The great Robert Sarver thought he and Lon Babby had all the answers. What a freaking joke.

Hopefully Bender and or Chriss become legitimate contributors. That is not a given.

[JustWinBaby]

Who cares what team a player retires "as"? I still loved his years here and will always remember him as a great Sun. We were also correct to let him leave in 2010 because of all the injury risks that proved to be totally founded. He had one (*1*) good year ever again after he left us, and they had to pay $100,000,000 for it. I can still remember 2003-2010 fondly and he can say he's retiring a Knick all he wants.

I remember we had quite a discussion when Sarver decided not to sign him for the $100,000,000 contract. In theory you and others were correct to a point. However I argued, at the time, that we would not be able to replace him and that I wanted to see that group from 2010 stay together, many of us really liked that team. By not signing him we made Nash irrelevant and ultimately it cost Gentry his job as well. That is after Sarver basically did not have D'Antoni's back and he left town. Another idiotic decision by Sarver.

Well you can twist it any way you want but we have not made the playoffs since we let him go. Only once since we let D'Antoni go. We have lost fan base and have basically been irrelevant since his departure. At this point a championship run is not even under consideration. The bigger question is, in what decade we will next make the playoffs?
The argument was that we needed to build a championship team and that keeping Amare would hinder that endeavor. How has that worked out?

Surely he probably would not have been effective for the entire contract but I expect that we would have been relevant for at least 2 years, maybe more with the aide of our medical staff. We surely would have been far more fun to watch, when he was healthy, than the crap we have put on the floor since his departure. Who knows maybe Nash would have retired a Sun.

The really sad thing was that we kept Nash around. We should have dumped him at the same time.

IMO, Amare would have been a perfect signing for this group for the next couple of years. I wonder who stopped that from happening, Sarver or Wooden?

The cause of all of our problems always seem to lead back to poor decisions by our ass clown owner, Robert Sarver. That is the main reason that I have little faith in Wooden being our coach.

The counter a lot of people made/make is that re-signing Amare for $100m would have been better than the Childress/Warrick/H*** T******u puu-puu platter that we signed instead. And that is absolutely true. It's a false dichotomy logical fallacy to say that those were our only two options, but I definitely would have preferred to keep Amare than the crud we signed in his place.

I don't think it is fair to say "we haven't been good since Amare left" (and therefore should have kept him). We haven't been good since he left because of dozens of questionable management decisions in the intervening years. Disenfranchising Dragic. Trading Dragic and IT for minimal return. Betting the house on a point guard with no ligaments in his knees who doesn't really pass the ball well. Doubling down on the 2-PG and 3-PG offense. Signing a bunch of "asset" players without thinking much about the overall team we were building. Letting the Morris twins walk all over us and not handling them smoothly. Hiring a coach without doing any interviews. On and on. None of that is about Amare.

I understand what you are saying. However I think you just reinforce my position. I did not trust Sarver's decision making prior to the Amare decision. That is when we had a legitimate shot at a championship with D'Antoni as coach. Why should I trust his decision on dumping one of our two best players for nothing in return. The roster has only got worse since he became our owner. I did not trust him then nor do I trust him now.

[Shabazz]

[The Bobster]

I understand what you are saying. However I think you just reinforce my position. I did not trust Sarver's decision making prior to the Amare decision. That is when we had a legitimate shot at a championship with D'Antoni as coach. Why should I trust his decision on dumping one of our two best players for nothing in return. The roster has only got worse since he became our owner. I did not trust him then nor do I trust him now.

They didn't dump Amar'e, they just weren't willing to gamble $100 million on his knee, and they were right - he knee held up for one year.

Amar'e chose to go for the guaranteed money, and nobody can blame him for that, but just because the Knicks were willing to over-spend doesn't mean the Suns (or any other team) should have felt obligated to make the same offer.

[Ring_Wanted]

Letting him go was the right call. The way that money was spent by Sarver is what stinks, especially in the context of making the later years of Nash unnecessary irrelevant.

One thing we should note and it is that Phoenix has turned into a franchise that is not particularly good at treating well its greats. It's cool scoffing at nostalgic gestures, but the power is in the hands of the players more than ever and they value stuff like that.

[Mori Chu]

One thing we should note and it is that Phoenix has turned into a franchise that is not particularly good at treating well its greats. It's cool scoffing at nostalgic gestures, but the power is in the hands of the players more than ever and they value stuff like that.

This is a great point. Colangelo would have brought Amare back for a retirement contract in a nanosecond and made a big deal out of it.

[Superbone]

Note what almost every dunk had in common.

[AmareIsGod]

Note what almost every dunk had in common.

Posterizing his defender?

Edit: while in a Suns uniform.... And posted by Amare himself.

[Superbone]

Note what almost every dunk had in common.

Posterizing his defender?

Edit: while in a Suns uniform.... And posted by Amare himself.

Yep, I think only one wasn't in a Suns uniform.

[Cap]

Note what almost every dunk had in common.

Posterizing his defender?

Edit: while in a Suns uniform.... And posted by Amare himself.

Yep, I think only one wasn't in a Suns uniform.

So his best dunks came before his knees were completely shot. Shocking.

[Phoenix219]

https://twitter.com/Gambo987/status/758045807278891008

That really pisses me the f*** off. It could have been an awesome feel-good media story about Stat coming home to retire, and we have JD and Leo on the team this year. Its not like we are good or have anything to lose. Playing the rookies with some classic old Suns veterans would have been good enough for me. Yet another disrespect to former Suns from our ownership..... this is pretty much the same reason Nash went to LA. No reasonable explanation for this at ALL.

As usual Sarver gets a pass and all the blame goes to the player. IMO it is just another former employee that gives Sarver the finger. As I remember Nash sat with MDA during his ring of honor presentation and basically ignored Sarver. Sarver has turned this franchise into a total cluster f***.

We have been on a downward spiral since he became owner. Our roster has got no better. Our front office has got no better. Our fan base has shrunk. Free agents really do not want to come here.

I am a sucker and am looking forward to next season. Unfortunately the writing is on the wall. Until we get a new owner I have little faith much is going to change. I really want to be proven wrong.

Its a lack of loyalty and respect issue, plain and simple. How many players and personel have felt disrespected now? Marion (but wait, he was just a cry baby right?), Nash, Hill, Amare, Frye, Dragic, MDA, Alvin Gentry, Dan Majerle, Coach Hornacek...

This owner and front office shits all over any legacy, history or pride this team has ever had or earned.

I remember we had quite a discussion when Sarver decided not to sign him for the $100,000,000 contract. In theory you and others were correct to a point. However I argued, at the time, that we would not be able to replace him and that I wanted to see that group from 2010 stay together, many of us really liked that team.

I was firmly in the camp that thought it was time to rebuild. In retrospect, I think I was wrong. Even if we only got one more great year out of Ama're and Steve together, I would want that over what we got.

That is my point entirely. We were so close, IMO in 2010, I wanted another run at a title. I remember the chemistry Robin Lopez had with Amare. He finally had that defensive center to help on the defensive end that we were missing during those great years. We made it interesting in 2010 even though Robin was injured for most of the playoffs. I wanted to see a healthy a more mature Robin paired with Amare in the paint going forward.

The rebuild was a folly. When it was suggested that we should not pay Amare I definitely understood the injury concerns. However when I looked around the league there was NO ONE legitimately available to replace Amare. I would have even taken a marginal replacement. We still have not replaced him. The great Robert Sarver thought he and Lon Babby had all the answers. What a freaking joke.

Hopefully Bender and or Chriss become legitimate contributors. That is not a given.

Letting him go was the right call. The way that money was spent by Sarver is what stinks, especially in the context of making the later years of Nash unnecessary irrelevant.

One thing we should note and it is that Phoenix has turned into a franchise that is not particularly good at treating well its greats. It's cool scoffing at nostalgic gestures, but the power is in the hands of the players more than ever and they value stuff like that.

This is a great point. Colangelo would have brought Amare back for a retirement contract in a nanosecond and made a big deal out of it.

Just wanted to restate the important parts. Can't stress enough how much this all pisses me the fuck off.

[The Bobster]

Unfortunately, Amar'e wanted $100 million guaranteed. And he just wasn't worth it.

Not every decision is an easy one, but in the case of guaranteeing all that money they made the right one.

[Superbone]

Note what almost every dunk had in common.

Posterizing his defender?

Edit: while in a Suns uniform.... And posted by Amare himself.

Yep, I think only one wasn't in a Suns uniform.

So his best dunks came before his knees were completely shot. Shocking.

Not my point but OK. Some are more easily shocked than others apparently.

[JustWinBaby]

219 - You and I appear to be the only ones that get it. It was another poor decision by Sarver plain and simple. The continual support Sarver receives for not letting D'Antoni be our coach and dumping Amare, yes he freaking dumped him, is beyond the pale. I do not know how else to describe it. He was given a chance to match and he chose not to do so. It was Sarver's choice, Amare wanted to stay. I really cannot remember anyone that has been treated with respect on their departure, that includes his buddy Steve Kerr. Kerr wanted a raise and Sarver would have none of it. Somehow most on this and other boards continue to buy into Sarver's spin on almost every issue. This is while he has destroyed this franchise.

While Amare never played 82 games in any season since he left town or played big minutes he has remained productive with his time on the court. Here are the facts without the usual negative spin.
Games Minutes PPG PER
per 36
10/11 Knicks 78 36.8 24.7 22.7

11/12 Knicks 47 22.8 19.2 17.7

12/13 Knicks 29 23.5 21.8 22.1

13/14 Knicks 65 22.6 19.0 18.8

14/15 Knicks/Dal 59 21.2 19.7 20.3

15/16 Miami 52 17.3 14.2 14.7

He has maintained a PER every year over the league average of 15 and in most years close to his most productive years.

Which Suns players have been as productive as Amare?
More than 20 PPG per 36 Min

10/11 JRich 21.8
11/12 No One
12/13 No One
13/14 Dragic 20.8, Green 20.0 - both were dumped in 2015 Season
14/15 Green 22.0, IT 21.4 - Both in Boston
15/16 Mirza 20.6, Bled 21. (31 games) Mirza dumped

More than a 20 PER

10/11 Nash 20.8
11/12 Nash 20.3, Gortat 21.2 (This was the year that he was the 2nd coming)
12/13 No One
13/14 Dragic 21.4 (Sarver helped him out the door)
14/15 No One
15/16 Bledsoe 20.0 (31 games)

My view is that he would have been one of our most productive players on the court for the past 6 years, when healthy enough to play. His numbers were produced without Steve Nash as his point guard or MDA as his coach. He also was very active in the community and the fan base generally loved him, or so I believe. It was a dumb move at the time and the facts prove the point. In the years since he was "dumped" his replacement has yet to be found. That is the sad tale of Sarver's ownership. I predicted that his replacement would not be found and I was correct. I am not suggesting that we would have been great with him while winning multiple championships, but he would not have hurt this franchise one bit. We would have been far more interesting and it would have been a nice transition to our future, which finally appears to be upon us.

If we can make room for Dudley and LB then we should have made room on the roster for Amare this year. Another of the many asinine moves by Sarver.

[Cap]

[youtube][/youtube]

[Superbone]

Let me spell it out for you: Amare's best years were in a Suns uniform.

[Mori Chu]

While Amare never played 82 games in any season since he left town or played big minutes he has remained productive with his time on the court. Here are the facts without the usual negative spin.

Games Minutes PPG PER per 36
10/11 Knicks 78 36.8 24.7 22.7
11/12 Knicks 47 22.8 19.2 17.7
12/13 Knicks 29 23.5 21.8 22.1
13/14 Knicks 65 22.6 19.0 18.8
14/15 Knicks/Dal 59 21.2 19.7 20.3
15/16 Miami 52 17.3 14.2 14.7

He has maintained a PER every year over the league average of 15 and in most years close to his most productive years.

That looks like a player who had one good year, 2010/11. In 2012 he played 47 games. In 2013 he played 29. In 2014, back up to 65 games, but that's still missing a lot, and by that point he's down under 20 ppg and his best days are behind him.

By what stretch of the imagination are those the numbers of a $100m player?

[The Bobster]

By what stretch of the imagination are those the numbers of a $100m player?

If you're still seeing a 25-year-old Amar'e when you look at him I suppose. But the reality is he's 33, lost a lot of his athleticism, is not a high-volume scorer any more and is still a bad defensive player.