Suns News: Week 4 11/6-11/12

[Split T]

I wouldn't. I think there's a better than not chance that duo breaks up before we figure it out. And if we do figure it out, does that make us Portland? Washington? Is Kyrie/Booker any better than Lillard/McCollum or Wall/Beal?

I still think we're heading in a good direction. Booker looks like a star, I'm still optimistic about Jackson becoming special and i think Warren/Bender/ulis/Williams can be 5-8 men. So we probably need two more guys on the Booker and Jackson(if he pans out) level.

We should have a really good shot at drafting one next year and then we have a few options for landing the 2nd:

1. One of our bench crew (Warren/Bender/Chriss etc.) develops better than expected.
2. We draft another stud with the Miami or Milwaukee pick
3. We sign a free agent
4. We package some lesser assets for one bigger asset.

So I think the two most important things are:

1. One or preferably 2 of Jackson/Bender/Chriss/Warren needs to turn into something special
2. We absolutely need to hit a home run with the 2018 draft

Yes, Book/Irving has the potential to be the best backcourt offensively in the league.

I think it would be shocking if any of the aforementioned guys turns into anything special.

You win in this league with stars. Right now we have 1 potential star and nobody else on the horizon.

I’d much rather have 2 stars and have a great problem of figuring out how to surround them with talent. Thats a great problem to have. Right now we have nothing.

I think that's fair and I don't by any means think it's a bad path. Kyrie/Booker could be special. I just think our current path has a better chance of turning into sustained success.

[Split T]

We keep contending for these draft picks but never get in the top 3 and haven't seen the returns on most of the guys we've drafted.

Len - Never really developed. Is having his best season this year, but he probably walks, so this looks like a poor pick. Not a whole lot of obviously better picks came after him (Antetekounmpo, Gobert, and McCollum) but a lot of centers after him were better(Noel, Adams, Plumlee, Gobert)

Warren- Been about as good as you should expect from a 14th pick. Only picks that might have been better (Harris, Capela, Jokic)

Booker- A steal at pick 13

Bender - Still too early to tell, but pretty underwhelming for the 4th pick. Unfortunately the draft was weak and it's probably better to view him as a later half of lotto prospect (8-14). No one stands out as obviously better yet.

Chriss - similar to Bender. Too early, but underwhelming for the 8th pick especially considering we have up a decent amount to get him (Papagiannis, skal, bogdon)

Jackson- way too early to tell. Some good rookie performances make his pick look questionable. Fox and Isaac look good. As do some lower picks (markkanen, Collins, kuzma) I'm still happy with Jackson, although I might prefer Fox or Isaac.

[Mori Chu]

Chriss - similar to Bender. Too early, but underwhelming for the 8th pick especially considering we have up a decent amount to get him (Papagiannis, skal, bogdon)

You could argue that each of the 3 eventual players we gave up for Chriss is individually better than Chriss. That wasn't a dollar for 3 quarters trade, it was a 3 dollars for 1 quarter trade.

[Split T]

Skal maybe, but not by much. And Bogdon has looked decent but he's only played 6 games. And I don't think there is any argument to be made with Papagiannis, he's been bad.

But still, in a 3 for 1, you better come away with the best player and it's not looking like we did. It's not 3 dollars for a quarter, but maybe two dimes and a penny for another dime.

[sunshoopjunky]

The rumor was Cleveland wanted bled/Jackson/1st. I think it was the right move to say no to that. Would it have been terrible? No, but we'd still have been a lotto team even with Kyrie and I think Kyrie was gone after two years or requesting a trade after 1. I wasn't adamantly against including Jackson in a trade for Kyrie but I thought bled + Miami pick + one of Warren/Chriss/Bender was a fair offer.

I think we should give Jackson more than 10 games to determine if keeping him out of trade talks for Kyrie was a bad idea or not.

Agreed. I still think it was the right move unless you just wanted a couple of good seasons and didn't want to contend for the top 5 in next year's draft.

Well said

[specialsauce]

I wouldn't. I think there's a better than not chance that duo breaks up before we figure it out. And if we do figure it out, does that make us Portland? Washington? Is Kyrie/Booker any better than Lillard/McCollum or Wall/Beal?

I still think we're heading in a good direction. Booker looks like a star, I'm still optimistic about Jackson becoming special and i think Warren/Bender/ulis/Williams can be 5-8 men. So we probably need two more guys on the Booker and Jackson(if he pans out) level.

We should have a really good shot at drafting one next year and then we have a few options for landing the 2nd:

1. One of our bench crew (Warren/Bender/Chriss etc.) develops better than expected.
2. We draft another stud with the Miami or Milwaukee pick
3. We sign a free agent
4. We package some lesser assets for one bigger asset.

So I think the two most important things are:

1. One or preferably 2 of Jackson/Bender/Chriss/Warren needs to turn into something special
2. We absolutely need to hit a home run with the 2018 draft

Yes, Book/Irving has the potential to be the best backcourt offensively in the league.

I think it would be shocking if any of the aforementioned guys turns into anything special.

You win in this league with stars. Right now we have 1 potential star and nobody else on the horizon.

I’d much rather have 2 stars and have a great problem of figuring out how to surround them with talent. Thats a great problem to have. Right now we have nothing.

I think that's fair and I don't by any means think it's a bad path. Kyrie/Booker could be special. I just think our current path has a better chance of turning into sustained success.

I have to disagree because I ultimately see no second star on this team. Even if these players all grow, at best I see Booker and bench fodder. Not going to cut it. Ultimately the goal is to turn assets into talent. We had a chance to do that and we passed. Five bench players does not equal 1 star. That’s the same mistake Babby made when he let Amare go and replaced him with a bunch of mediocre players. Health concerns were a whole different story obviously.

[sunshoopjunky]

We keep contending for these draft picks but never get in the top 3 and haven't seen the returns on most of the guys we've drafted.

Len - Never really developed. Is having his best season this year, but he probably walks, so this looks like a poor pick. Not a whole lot of obviously better picks came after him (Antetekounmpo, Gobert, and McCollum) but a lot of centers after him were better(Noel, Adams, Plumlee, Gobert)

Do we have any kind of rights? Or is there any kind of incentive for him to pick us over someone else. Can we offer more years or anything? If so it may work out very well for us with him.

Warren- Been about as good as you should expect from a 14th pick. Only picks that might have been better (Harris, Capela, Jokic)

I think his value is in the contract he just signed, if he can stay healthy.

Booker- A steal at pick 13

We are lucky that Watson did not ruin him.

Bender - Still too early to tell, but pretty underwhelming for the 4th pick. Unfortunately the draft was weak and it's probably better to view him as a later half of lotto prospect (8-14). No one stands out as obviously better yet.

I was not a fan of picking him. He has grown on me. He makes Len better. I would not be apposed to seeing him as a SF in the future. You can tell he has been playing pro ball longer then most on our team. The only way that he gets to the All Star Game is if he gains aggressiveness that he has not shown. If he had gets a little more Chriss in his game.

Chriss - similar to Bender. Too early, but underwhelming for the 8th pick especially considering we have up a decent amount to get him (Papagiannis, skal, bogdon)

Has not played ball long enough and it shows. tremendous athlete. The key for him is that his body holds up long enough for his IQ to catch up.

Jackson- way too early to tell. Some good rookie performances make his pick look questionable. Fox and Isaac look good. As do some lower picks (markkanen, Collins, kuzma) I'm still happy with Jackson, although I might prefer Fox or Isaac.

Jackson plays very smart basketball. I think his FIT for our team is the best in the draft outside of Ball and he was gone then.

[Split T]

I wouldn't. I think there's a better than not chance that duo breaks up before we figure it out. And if we do figure it out, does that make us Portland? Washington? Is Kyrie/Booker any better than Lillard/McCollum or Wall/Beal?

I still think we're heading in a good direction. Booker looks like a star, I'm still optimistic about Jackson becoming special and i think Warren/Bender/ulis/Williams can be 5-8 men. So we probably need two more guys on the Booker and Jackson(if he pans out) level.

We should have a really good shot at drafting one next year and then we have a few options for landing the 2nd:

1. One of our bench crew (Warren/Bender/Chriss etc.) develops better than expected.
2. We draft another stud with the Miami or Milwaukee pick
3. We sign a free agent
4. We package some lesser assets for one bigger asset.

So I think the two most important things are:

1. One or preferably 2 of Jackson/Bender/Chriss/Warren needs to turn into something special
2. We absolutely need to hit a home run with the 2018 draft

Yes, Book/Irving has the potential to be the best backcourt offensively in the league.

I think it would be shocking if any of the aforementioned guys turns into anything special.

You win in this league with stars. Right now we have 1 potential star and nobody else on the horizon.

I’d much rather have 2 stars and have a great problem of figuring out how to surround them with talent. Thats a great problem to have. Right now we have nothing.

I think that's fair and I don't by any means think it's a bad path. Kyrie/Booker could be special. I just think our current path has a better chance of turning into sustained success.

I have to disagree because I ultimately see no second star on this team. Even if these players all grow, at best I see Booker and bench fodder. Not going to cut it. Ultimately the goal is to turn assets into talent. We had a chance to do that and we passed. Five bench players does not equal 1 star. That’s the same mistake Babby made when he let Amare go and replaced him with a bunch of mediocre players. Health concerns were a whole different story obviously.

This I agree with and we still are loaded with assets. Three things that lead me to believe passing on Kyrie made sense:

1. I don't believe Kyrie would have stayed
2. Our one current star is actually a future star and hasn't fully arrived. Booker just turned 21, we don't need to throw all our chips in yet. Especially with how deep the west is. Also GS, we're shooting to compete when GS is falling off.
3. I don't think Booker/Kyrie is enough. Those guys are pretty on par with Lillard/McCollum and Wall/Beal. I don't want to throw my chips in for a 5 seed.

If we hit a home run with the 2018 draft (I know that's a big if) we add that to booker and Jackson, plus whatever role players we like. Then we can move our assets(3 extra firsts and our leftover prospects)

[sunshoopjunky]

I wouldn't. I think there's a better than not chance that duo breaks up before we figure it out. And if we do figure it out, does that make us Portland? Washington? Is Kyrie/Booker any better than Lillard/McCollum or Wall/Beal?

I still think we're heading in a good direction. Booker looks like a star, I'm still optimistic about Jackson becoming special and i think Warren/Bender/ulis/Williams can be 5-8 men. So we probably need two more guys on the Booker and Jackson(if he pans out) level.

We should have a really good shot at drafting one next year and then we have a few options for landing the 2nd:

1. One of our bench crew (Warren/Bender/Chriss etc.) develops better than expected.
2. We draft another stud with the Miami or Milwaukee pick
3. We sign a free agent
4. We package some lesser assets for one bigger asset.

So I think the two most important things are:

1. One or preferably 2 of Jackson/Bender/Chriss/Warren needs to turn into something special
2. We absolutely need to hit a home run with the 2018 draft

Yes, Book/Irving has the potential to be the best backcourt offensively in the league.

I think it would be shocking if any of the aforementioned guys turns into anything special.

You win in this league with stars. Right now we have 1 potential star and nobody else on the horizon.

I’d much rather have 2 stars and have a great problem of figuring out how to surround them with talent. Thats a great problem to have. Right now we have nothing.

I think that's fair and I don't by any means think it's a bad path. Kyrie/Booker could be special. I just think our current path has a better chance of turning into sustained success.

I have to disagree because I ultimately see no second star on this team. Even if these players all grow, at best I see Booker and bench fodder. Not going to cut it. Ultimately the goal is to turn assets into talent. We had a chance to do that and we passed. Five bench players does not equal 1 star. That’s the same mistake Babby made when he let Amare go and replaced him with a bunch of mediocre players. Health concerns were a whole different story obviously.

I wonder how most people felt about Booker the first half of his first season. I feel like Jackson makes the smarter plays that I didn't see from Booker until last year. Could be coaching. But I think everyone can agree they are all only going to get smarter.

[Split T]

Len - Never really developed. Is having his best season this year, but he probably walks, so this looks like a poor pick. Not a whole lot of obviously better picks came after him (Antetekounmpo, Gobert, and McCollum) but a lot of centers after him were better(Noel, Adams, Plumlee, Gobert)

Do we have any kind of rights? Or is there any kind of incentive for him to pick us over someone else. Can we offer more years or anything? If so it may work out very well for us with him.

We still have his bird rights, meaning we can go over the cap to sign him, but we're pretty far under so I'm not sure it matters. We can also offer more money in a max offer situation, but Len shouldn't be getting max offers. The one thing in our favor is that not a lot of teams have cap space. Still, a mid level exception contract is around 8-9 million a year. Len might be willing to sign that.

[Aztec Sunsfan]

The chances of Irving signing an extension with Boston in my opinion are less then 50% even with the good start.
The chances of Irving signing an extension with the Suns less then 30% regardless of how we started.


Trading your future (Josh Jackson or the value of him) for the less then a 30% chance at keeping Irving is the exact type of thing that sets you back 5 years.
Not to mention we have absolutely no chance of making the playoffs let alone getting past the first round. In the next 2 years.
It makes no sense to rent a player at our stage.

Being let down as many times as we have a Suns fans you think we would know that by now. How on earth would anyone even in hind sight make that Irving trade?

THANK YOU. (And 30% looks really generous to me.)

[Mori Chu]

If you don't think your team can keep a marquee player after having him for a year, you might as well just give up and sell or disband the freaking team.

If you can't have Kyrie here for a full season and convince him to stay, the team shouldn't even exist.

[specialsauce]

Having a marquee player and trying to figure out how to make the team competitive enough to entice him to stay is a rich mans problem

[Split T]

If you don't think your team can keep a marquee player after having him for a year, you might as well just give up and sell or disband the freaking team.

If you can't have Kyrie here for a full season and convince him to stay, the team shouldn't even exist.

I don't understand this. I think over half the teams in the NBA would have had trouble convincing Kyrie to stay. Should we contract down to the Lakers, Warriors, Rockets, Spurs, Celtics, Knicks, Heat, and Bulls?

The fact is, we're a bad team right now and we'd have a year and a half to get really good or we'd be dumping Kyrie at the trade deadline in 2019 for a mid 1st.

[Ring_Wanted]

I don't miss Irving. I have no faith he would have remained a Sun and his fit alongside Booker is not ideal. If Jackson fails to deliver, people will be mad in hindsight, but at the time I had no problem 'letting' him go to the Celtics.

[ShelC]

Sorry but the whole "glad we didn't trade for Kyrie because we don't think he'd stay" is a loser mentality. We've supposedly been collecting draft picks and acquiring assets to make a trade for a star and then we get the chance to do so but pass because we don't think he'll stay? Gotta take that chance. That's what separates the winning teams from the losing teams. Bring him in and do everything you can to build up the roster and convince him to stay. Presti asked Westbrook to trust him, that he'd make the moves necessary after Durant left; then he went out and got Paul George and Melo. Maybe McD didn't want that kind of added pressure? Maybe he'd rather keep stringing everyone along with his "timeline" so he buys himself another 2-3-4 years "building up the roster" and "collecting assets". Well we just sold Bledsoe for pennies on the dollar, Knight has no value and no one wants Chandler. Oh and here's a bold prediction: No one will want Monroe either and we'll be lucky to get a 1st for him.

[Split T]

Sorry but the whole "glad we didn't trade for Kyrie because we don't think he'd stay" is a loser mentality. We've supposedly been collecting draft picks and acquiring assets to make a trade for a star and then we get the chance to do so but pass because we don't think he'll stay? Gotta take that chance. That's what separates the winning teams from the losing teams. Bring him in and do everything you can to build up the roster and convince him to stay. Presti asked Westbrook to trust him, that he'd make the moves necessary after Durant left; then he went out and got Paul George and Melo. Maybe McD didn't want that kind of added pressure? Maybe he'd rather keep stringing everyone along with his "timeline" so he buys himself another 2-3-4 years "building up the roster" and "collecting assets". Well we just sold Bledsoe for pennies on the dollar, Knight has no value and no one wants Chandler. Oh and here's a bold prediction: No one will want Monroe either and we'll be lucky to get a 1st for him.

It's one of be multiple reasons for not trading for him. Do you think a team of Kyrie/Booker/Warren/Dudley/Chandler is doing anything in the West? They win 38 games and get an 11 seed. I was in favor of adding Irving but not at the expense of our top assets. Kyrie is good, not elite. I'd unload the treasure chest for Antetekounmpo, KAT, AD, Jokic, Porzingis and maybe Embiid and Simmons.

[bajanguy008]

I think you guys make decent cases for both sides of the Kyrie thing but I try not to do the what if stuff well at least for past situations. As for the draft picks discussion and what we might have going forward, I know most are down on Chriss and some comps been made to Stromile as athletic big who never really got it and just became an avg guy in the league. Obviously at this time some of us hoping Josh can become our Kawhi maybe have to hold off on that but Kawhi did take some time to find himself too so we can hope. Bender is now becoming a bigger talking point on here and I know he idolized Kukoc but the way he is so solid defensively with his length and just makes smart plays on O, Kirilenko crossed my mind this morning. Does anybody see that potential in him or I'm on an island (no pun intended) with that take

[Hermen]

Here's a fun comparison of us and Boston since 2013, when Boston started their rebuild with Stevens and McD started his GM job here. The major things:

• 2013 draft: Boston got Olynyk at 13, Phoenix got Len at 5
• 2014 draft: Boston got Smart at 6, Phoenix got Warren at 14
• We gave them Thomas
• 2015 draft: Boston got Rozier at 16, Phoenix got Booker at 13
• 2016 draft: Boston got Brown at 3, Phoenix got Bender at 4 (and Chriss at 8)
• Boston signed Horford
• 2017 draft: Boston got Tatum at 3, Phoenix got Jackson at 4
• Boston traded for Irving (and signed Hayward)

This is not a comprehensive list, there were loads of other picks from both teams that don't seem as important (lots of them are not with the teams anymore). I'm just amazed at how much better off Boston is compared to us. Looking at drafted players, are theirs even better? And they signed Horford, traded for Kyrie, players who most here (myself included) didn't really want to get at their price, they even salary dumped Bradley for a Morris (!). And now they rock.

[O_Gardino]

I wonder how most people felt about Booker the first half of his first season. I feel like Jackson makes the smarter plays that I didn't see from Booker until last year. Could be coaching. But I think everyone can agree they are all only going to get smarter.

Jackson is going to be fine.