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Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:59 am
by Split T
We were tied with GS in the standings when they traded for Butler…they’ve gone 20-6 and we’ve gone 9-18
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:14 pm
by 1tinsoldier
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:50 am
I will not continue to discuss this with you. It is pointless. Ishbia is in control. Not you nor I. Hate away.
if it is pointless to discuss Booker's value because Ishbia is in control, why engage in a Suns discussion forum at all? I'd be delighted to let you cop out of THE critical question regarding the Suns future if you had not ended your post with a personal attack insinuating my opinion is based on "hate."
so. Simple question:
Do you believe building around Booker with a 70 mil per year deal is in the Suns best interest?
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 1:26 pm
by TOO
1tinsoldier wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:14 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:50 am
I will not continue to discuss this with you. It is pointless. Ishbia is in control. Not you nor I. Hate away.
if it is pointless to discuss Booker's value because Ishbia is in control, why engage in a Suns discussion forum at all? I'd be delighted to let you cop out of THE critical question regarding the Suns future if you had not ended your post with a personal attack insinuating my opinion is based on "hate."
so. Simple question:
Do you believe building around Booker with a 70 mil per year deal is in the Suns best interest?
I say this as a guy who was one of the first to jump on the move Booker train a few seasons ago, you could do worse. I do not think Booker is the problem, it's the roster construction around him.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:29 pm
by Kryptonic
TOO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 1:26 pm
1tinsoldier wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:14 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:50 am
I will not continue to discuss this with you. It is pointless. Ishbia is in control. Not you nor I. Hate away.
if it is pointless to discuss Booker's value because Ishbia is in control, why engage in a Suns discussion forum at all? I'd be delighted to let you cop out of THE critical question regarding the Suns future if you had not ended your post with a personal attack insinuating my opinion is based on "hate."
so. Simple question:
Do you believe building around Booker with a 70 mil per year deal is in the Suns best interest?
I say this as a guy who was one of the first to jump on the move Booker train a few seasons ago, you could do worse. I do not think Booker is the problem, it's the roster construction around him.
Got me thinking and was wondering if there was a metric out there to show a players effective value and came across this….
https://hoopshype.com/lists/global-rati ... ght-now-2/
Well, let’s explain what that is.
Global Rating is a statistical tool created by HoopsHype’s Alberto de Roa that measures players’ and teams’ performance taking into account not only individual stats but also team and competition strength.
As opposed to some other advanced stats, the main idea is that individual stats can’t be measured in a vacuum. No matter the competition, having a 20-10-5 season for the championship team will always have more value than doing it for the worst team. And when comparing competitions, having a great season against the best squads in the world will always have more value than accomplishing that against minnows. The goal for Global Rating is to understand and measure this nuance.
The process has several automated steps. First one is to assign an individual number factoring simple stats from each player. Points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, turnovers, fouls and shooting efficiency are the basis for that stat.
The next step takes into account the performance of the team and the impact a player had in it. If a player is on the court for 35 minutes in a 20-point win, the impact has nothing to do with the one of a player who only logged five minutes.
The amount of games a player has missed in a certain season or competition is also factored in. That helps differentiate players that have been productive for their teams on a regular basis from others standing out due to small samples. That’s especially useful when discussing awards, where voters and fans prioritize players who have been on the court for most of the year
Bookers 14th on the list well ahead of KD. Anyhow…. Thought it was interesting and helps show that Booker isn’t as bad as we think compared to all other NBA players.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:35 pm
by TOO
Devin Booker is very good, I just think he requires a very specific build around him, lots of wings who can defend and rebound but also finish his passes, a C who can clean up the slack and a PG who can orchestrate but also hit an open jumper when Book is running things. We had it during the finals run, that's what he requires.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:36 pm
by Split T
The 70 million dollar per year stuff is very misleading. He’s in the first year of a contract that pays him 49/53/57/61.
70 million wouldn’t come until 2028-29, 3+ years from now. And if he does get it…it would be the equivalent of paying him 49 million in today’s money. It’s not any more than he’s making now.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:40 pm
by O_Gardino
TOO wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:35 pm
Devin Booker is very good, I just think he requires a very specific build around him, lots of wings who can defend and rebound but also finish his passes, a C who can clean up the slack and a PG who can orchestrate but also hit an open jumper when Book is running things. We had it during the finals run, that's what he requires.
That isn't a 'very specific build'; that's just modern basketball team.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:49 pm
by Split T
Here’s a question, how many teams do you think you could slide Booker in place of their SG and be a contender?
Here’s who I think
OKC with Booker instead of Jalen Williams
Houston with Booker instead of Jalen Green
Lakers with Booker instead of Austin Reaves
Nuggets with Booker instead of Murray
Warriors with Booker instead of Podz(this one probably isn’t fair)
That’s probably it in the West.
Cavs with Booker instead of Mitchell
Celtics with Booker instead of Brown or White
Knicks with Booker instead of Bridges
Bucks with Booker instead of Trent
That’s 9 teams Book would fit right in on and be a championship contender with. Lots of other teams he’d make a good team.
I think it’s hard to build a contender with him as your best player, but it’s quite easy with him as your 2nd best.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:28 pm
by Mori Chu
How about this? It's hard to build a championship contender around Devin Booker if you spend almost 100% of the rest of your cap on another finishing scorer who needs the ball, and a guy who plays the same position as Booker but is older, shittier, and injured 50% of the time?
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:51 pm
by Superbone
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 8:54 am
BigLewy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 8:27 am
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 7:43 am
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 7:04 am
Kryptonic wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 4:57 am
I’d argue this team has zero leader…. Books not a leader just like KD. They’re just hoopers through and through and don’t want responsibility of anyone else.
This is an interesting comment. I do agree with your comment that we lack something from our team leaders, and it makes me think about the nature of "leadership" from a player. IMO you can provide more than one kind of leadership, with differing effects. You can be a leader in terms of being a team's centerpiece player, the main scorer, the guy who gets double-teamed and hacked and focused on by the other team, the guy who will take the big shot under pressure to try to carry the team to a win. And I think Book and KD both provide THAT kind of leadership. And that counts for something. Both of those guys do lead in the way I just described. There's also leading by example: showing up early to practice, working on your craft, working hard, putting in the time, giving a shit. I think Book (moreso) and KD also provide THAT kind of leadership. You should aspire to work as hard as they do to improve.
But there's the other kind of player leadership, the kind Kryptonic is talking about, which is more like vocal or motivational in-game leadership. Barking at your teammates to get them to hustle. Calling out defensive rotations and plays. Basically just being in everyone's ear the whole game. Clearly CP3 provided that for us in spades, and neither Book nor KD is wired like that. They just don't do it. And it does seem like a great NBA team needs at least 1-2 guys like that. You can really feel the absence of it on our team the past 2 years.
So I think Book/KD's leadership is a mixed bag. They do provide a lot of it, but a really important piece of it is missing, and we feel it every game. I think if we had a barker like CP3 on the roster who the players listened to and respected, you would see much better outcomes even from the same flawed roster we have today.
I hear ya. We need a barker and someone who’ll be able to hold people accountable.
We needed Jimmy Butler.....stupid Beal NTC.
Honestly I think it would have had a huge impact. Love him or hate him, he’s the bulldog we needed.
He obviously would have. All you have to do is look at the Warriors since they acquired him.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:56 pm
by Superbone
1tinsoldier wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:14 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:50 am
I will not continue to discuss this with you. It is pointless. Ishbia is in control. Not you nor I. Hate away.
if it is pointless to discuss Booker's value because Ishbia is in control, why engage in a Suns discussion forum at all? I'd be delighted to let you cop out of THE critical question regarding the Suns future if you had not ended your post with a personal attack insinuating my opinion is based on "hate."
so. Simple question:
Do you believe building around Booker with a 70 mil per year deal is in the Suns best interest?
Since I was gone from the site, three posters have answered your question pretty eloquently. And you must admit that a lot of this thread appears to be "hating", if you're honest with yourself. There are better ways to present your arguments. Especially when you label all posters that don't agree with you. That is a conversation ender right there.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 4:06 pm
by JustWinBaby
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 3:28 pm
How about this? It's hard to build a championship contender around Devin Booker if you spend almost 100% of the rest of your cap on another finishing scorer who needs the ball, and a guy who plays the same position as Booker but is older, shittier, and injured 50% of the time?
I am assuming that you are talking about Bradley Beal. If so in my opinion he is the biggest problem with our roster.
I think KD and Book are just fine but we need a legit PG in the worst way. We may have him already in Gillespie. He appears to at least be the ultimate competitor. We also need a legit PF with a nasty streak. As others have mentioned, Butler would have been perfect. Draymond Green would do wonders for our team. Both of those guys are out of the question for us unfortunately.
If we do just waive Beal, would that free up enough money for us to go after a version of Butler or Green to add to the roster this summer? Who would that guy be? After dumping Beal could we combine Allen and O'Neale's salary to acquire that guy?
Is Bud the right coach for this group?
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 4:52 pm
by JeremyG
Superbone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 12:50 am
1tinsoldier wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 10:31 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:46 pm
So your theory is that if you can convince
every single Suns' fan that we should move on from Booker that Ishbia will trade him?! LOL! Good luck with that!
... I'm a Suns fan through and through. I have never in my life followed a player to another team.
i don't understand your logic:
why would i have to convince "every single Sun's fan?"
why would a "Suns fan through and through" put fandom for 1 player above the future interest of the Suns without presenting one valid reason for paying him 70 million per season.
You said:
"actually, it's only because Ishbia believes local fans have been indoctrinated with the Booker myth, that he won't let Booker go. So...if you let go, Booker could go."
Either you are saying, I alone have the power to get Ishbia to trade Booker or all the fans do. The logic is based on what you said.
Well logic would say he needs to convince a majority of the fans, not necessarily all.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 5:27 pm
by The Bobster
Yes, everybody's first choice is to get rid of Beal.
But they can't waive and stretch him unless he's willing to eat a big chunk of money, and what's the incentive for him to do that?
And they can't trade him unless it's to a team he approves of, and would a team like the Celtics, Lakers, Thunder, Rockets, Cavaliers, Knicks, etc. really want to take on his contact with a NTC?
So unless he's hilling to eat $20 million, or a team he's willing to go to is willing to take on a $50 million contract with a NTC, he's probably not going anywhere.
So then they're left with two players who bring something to build with in return - Durant and Booker. If those three are all back any changes they make is just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 8:53 pm
by JeremyG
-32 for Booker in the most important game of the season. 0-5 from three. He’s trying to break his record for worst season 3P% I guess.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:01 pm
by The Bobster
JeremyG wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 8:53 pm
-32 for Booker in the most important game of the season. 0-5 from three. He’s trying to break his record for worst season 3P% I guess.
Still by far the high scorer for the Suns tonight.
I don't say we have to trade Booker, but for anyone to say he's untouchable when the team has this many holes and so few resources is just loonacy.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:02 pm
by Split T
JeremyG wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 8:53 pm
-32 for Booker in the most important game of the season. 0-5 from three. He’s trying to break his record for worst season 3P% I guess.
Most important game of the season? The season is over my man, this game means nothing.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:20 pm
by TOO
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:02 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 8:53 pm
-32 for Booker in the most important game of the season. 0-5 from three. He’s trying to break his record for worst season 3P% I guess.
Most important game of the season? The season is over my man, this game means nothing.
Lol this. This team has been cooked for months.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:35 pm
by JeremyG
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:02 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 8:53 pm
-32 for Booker in the most important game of the season. 0-5 from three. He’s trying to break his record for worst season 3P% I guess.
Most important game of the season? The season is over my man, this game means nothing.
I wouldn’t expect a “basketball sicko” (as Booker used to be described on here) to just let their team give up before they’re eliminated. But I guess he did in all the elimination games he’s played in as well.
Re: Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2025 9:43 pm
by 1tinsoldier
Split T wrote: ↑Tue Apr 08, 2025 2:49 pm
Here’s a question, how many teams do you think you could slide Booker in place of their SG and be a contender?
Here’s who I think
OKC with Booker instead of Jalen Williams
Houston with Booker instead of Jalen Green
Lakers with Booker instead of Austin Reaves
Nuggets with Booker instead of Murray
Warriors with Booker instead of Podz(this one probably isn’t fair)
That’s probably it in the West.
Cavs with Booker instead of Mitchell
Celtics with Booker instead of Brown or White
Knicks with Booker instead of Bridges
Bucks with Booker instead of Trent
That’s 9 teams Book would fit right in on and be a championship contender with. Lots of other teams he’d make a good team.
I think it’s hard to build a contender with him as your best player, but it’s quite easy with him as your 2nd best.
you're talking mostly about current championship contenders without Booker. With Booker i believe their chances go down. Like the other Booker lovers, you keep forgetting that
OTHER side of the court. Booker is a defensive liability and the teams you're talking about already have enough offensive firepower.
the only team he might work with Booker as a 3rd option is OKC because they have enough defensive prowess to compensate