Are The Suns Cursed? Book it!

[Superbone]

Do you really trust Ishbia to get a good return in a trade of both KD and Booker, you can add Beal, Allen and O'Neale to the list of the trade candidates this summer.

Past history says he does not have a clue.

That is if you liked the trades for KD, Beal, Nurkic, Allen and O'Neale. We had a young team that was fun to watch with all it's draft choices and a need for a PF and a legit point guard and PF. We might have been able to get those positions via the draft or trade. We actually had a coach I liked that won a team record 64 games and took us to the finals.

We are now left with Booker and probably with Bud without any draft picks. What a fuck story.

At least during the Sarve years we had the draft to look forward to.

It's not great, is it? However, Ishbia's past history is very short. This summer will tell us a lot. How does he try to get out of this mess? How long does it take? Does he stick with James Jones? Bud? I just hope Ishbia can learn from his mistakes and that his initial brashness doesn't take years to undo.

[Split T]

Booker in the following playoffs:

34 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 block per game.

Shot 59/51/87…a 69% TS…but ya he started his trajectory downward before that.

And what did he do in game 6, the most important game?

Irrelevant. You said his downward trend started a full year before. Are you changing to it starting in game 6 of 2023 now? He also made all-nba the next season, so remember that in your calculations.

I said the “downward trajectory of Booker and the team”—the two go hand-in-hand. It’s irrelevant that he made All-NBA if the team was going downhill.

But of course Ayton played no part in that, right?

[Mori Chu]

It's not great, is it? However, Ishbia's past history is very short. This summer will tell us a lot. How does he try to get out of this mess? How long does it take? Does he stick with James Jones? Bud? I just hope Ishbia can learn from his mistakes and that his initial brashness doesn't take years to undo.

I hope so, too, but the recent quotes have not given me confidence. Sounds like Ishbia is still "all-in" and still doesn't view draft picks and future assets as being valuable. We'll see if it is just talk or if he acts on it.

[1tinsoldier]

There's only one way to truly make both 1tinsoldier and JeremyG happy: the Suns need to trade Devin Booker for Deandre Ayton.

i'm glad to be out of Ayton. But it would be a plus just to break the Booker curse, so i'm open to anything.

[1tinsoldier]

All of this is moot since our owner has already said he’s not trading him…. We need to rebuild and it’s time to cash in on Book while we still can. Watching him go for 40 on a sub .500 team the next few years does nothing for us, so why pay that huge salary for him?

regarding Ishbia saying he's not trading him...I'm praying it's just posturing for a better return. But i doubt it.

Then let it go.

actually, it's only because Ishbia believes local fans have been indoctrinated with the Booker myth, that he won't let Booker go. So...if you let go, Booker could go.

and why not? Suns fans raised on real stars and superstars who make a difference, deserve to get their team back after a decade. Why can't you follow your favorite player on another team. Like NY? PHX deserves a real shot after 55 years.

[Superbone]

All of this is moot since our owner has already said he’s not trading him…. We need to rebuild and it’s time to cash in on Book while we still can. Watching him go for 40 on a sub .500 team the next few years does nothing for us, so why pay that huge salary for him?

regarding Ishbia saying he's not trading him...I'm praying it's just posturing for a better return. But i doubt it.

Then let it go.

actually, it's only because Ishbia believes local fans have been indoctrinated with the Booker myth, that he won't let Booker go. So...if you let go, Booker could go.

and why not? Suns fans raised on real stars and superstars who make a difference, deserve to get their team back after a decade. Why can't you follow your favorite player on another team. Like NY? PHX deserves a real shot after 55 years.

So your theory is that if you can convince every single Suns' fan that we should move on from Booker that Ishbia will trade him?! LOL! Good luck with that!

And you don't understand what kind of fan I am after all these years. Shows how little you pay attention to anything outside of your opinion. I'm a Suns fan through and through. I have never in my life followed a player to another team.

[JeremyG]

Booker in the following playoffs:

34 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 block per game.

Shot 59/51/87…a 69% TS…but ya he started his trajectory downward before that.

And what did he do in game 6, the most important game?

Irrelevant. You said his downward trend started a full year before. Are you changing to it starting in game 6 of 2023 now? He also made all-nba the next season, so remember that in your calculations.

I said the “downward trajectory of Booker and the team”—the two go hand-in-hand. It’s irrelevant that he made All-NBA if the team was going downhill.

But of course Ayton played no part in that, right?

Ayton has nothing to do with this conversation. And Booker is the leader of the team. But Ayton was not even on the team anymore in Booker’s All-NBA year.

[Split T]

Right, but you said the downhill started in 2022

[The Bobster]

Right, but you said the downhill started in 2022

Paul getting older was the turning point. It led them to a couple of poorly-executed trades, which led to this mess.

[Split T]

Right, but you said the downhill started in 2022

Paul getting older was the turning point. It led them to a couple of poorly-executed trades, which led to this mess.

I agree with that. Losing a reliable 2nd shot creator basically overnight was brutal.

[1tinsoldier]

So your theory is that if you can convince every single Suns' fan that we should move on from Booker that Ishbia will trade him?! LOL! Good luck with that!

... I'm a Suns fan through and through. I have never in my life followed a player to another team.

i don't understand your logic:

why would i have to convince "every single Sun's fan?"

why would a "Suns fan through and through" put fandom for 1 player above the future interest of the Suns without presenting one valid reason for paying him 70 million per season.

[Superbone]

So your theory is that if you can convince every single Suns' fan that we should move on from Booker that Ishbia will trade him?! LOL! Good luck with that!

... I'm a Suns fan through and through. I have never in my life followed a player to another team.

i don't understand your logic:

why would i have to convince "every single Sun's fan?"

why would a "Suns fan through and through" put fandom for 1 player above the future interest of the Suns without presenting one valid reason for paying him 70 million per season.

You said:

"actually, it's only because Ishbia believes local fans have been indoctrinated with the Booker myth, that he won't let Booker go. So...if you let go, Booker could go."

Either you are saying, I alone have the power to get Ishbia to trade Booker or all the fans do. The logic is based on what you said.

And for your second point, you are putting words into my mouth. I will not continue to discuss this with you. It is pointless. Ishbia is in control. Not you nor I. Hate away.

[Kryptonic]

And what did he do in game 6, the most important game?

Irrelevant. You said his downward trend started a full year before. Are you changing to it starting in game 6 of 2023 now? He also made all-nba the next season, so remember that in your calculations.

I said the “downward trajectory of Booker and the team”—the two go hand-in-hand. It’s irrelevant that he made All-NBA if the team was going downhill.

But of course Ayton played no part in that, right?

Ayton has nothing to do with this conversation. And Booker is the leader of the team. But Ayton was not even on the team anymore in Booker’s All-NBA year.

I’d argue this team has zero leader…. Books not a leader just like KD. They’re just hoopers through and through and don’t want responsibility of anyone else.

[Mori Chu]

I’d argue this team has zero leader…. Books not a leader just like KD. They’re just hoopers through and through and don’t want responsibility of anyone else.

This is an interesting comment. I do agree with your comment that we lack something from our team leaders, and it makes me think about the nature of "leadership" from a player. IMO you can provide more than one kind of leadership, with differing effects. You can be a leader in terms of being a team's centerpiece player, the main scorer, the guy who gets double-teamed and hacked and focused on by the other team, the guy who will take the big shot under pressure to try to carry the team to a win. And I think Book and KD both provide THAT kind of leadership. And that counts for something. Both of those guys do lead in the way I just described. There's also leading by example: showing up early to practice, working on your craft, working hard, putting in the time, giving a shit. I think Book (moreso) and KD also provide THAT kind of leadership. You should aspire to work as hard as they do to improve.

But there's the other kind of player leadership, the kind Kryptonic is talking about, which is more like vocal or motivational in-game leadership. Barking at your teammates to get them to hustle. Calling out defensive rotations and plays. Basically just being in everyone's ear the whole game. Clearly CP3 provided that for us in spades, and neither Book nor KD is wired like that. They just don't do it. And it does seem like a great NBA team needs at least 1-2 guys like that. You can really feel the absence of it on our team the past 2 years.

So I think Book/KD's leadership is a mixed bag. They do provide a lot of it, but a really important piece of it is missing, and we feel it every game. I think if we had a barker like CP3 on the roster who the players listened to and respected, you would see much better outcomes even from the same flawed roster we have today.

[Split T]

I do think the leadership problem is more that we were used to Monty and CP3. Book and KD are very different. I think it would’ve worked fine if they had the right talent fit. Ultimately that’s the big issue, way too much redundancy on the roster.

[TOO]

I do think the leadership problem is more that we were used to Monty and CP3. Book and KD are very different. I think it would’ve worked fine if they had the right talent fit. Ultimately that’s the big issue, way too much redundancy on the roster.

Yeah, there is very much a world where this team with a PG and a PF works. However we get 5 SG, no PF, back up Cs, back up PGs and coach who probably tries for about a month and was like welp, nobody can fix this.

[Kryptonic]

I’d argue this team has zero leader…. Books not a leader just like KD. They’re just hoopers through and through and don’t want responsibility of anyone else.

This is an interesting comment. I do agree with your comment that we lack something from our team leaders, and it makes me think about the nature of "leadership" from a player. IMO you can provide more than one kind of leadership, with differing effects. You can be a leader in terms of being a team's centerpiece player, the main scorer, the guy who gets double-teamed and hacked and focused on by the other team, the guy who will take the big shot under pressure to try to carry the team to a win. And I think Book and KD both provide THAT kind of leadership. And that counts for something. Both of those guys do lead in the way I just described. There's also leading by example: showing up early to practice, working on your craft, working hard, putting in the time, giving a shit. I think Book (moreso) and KD also provide THAT kind of leadership. You should aspire to work as hard as they do to improve.

But there's the other kind of player leadership, the kind Kryptonic is talking about, which is more like vocal or motivational in-game leadership. Barking at your teammates to get them to hustle. Calling out defensive rotations and plays. Basically just being in everyone's ear the whole game. Clearly CP3 provided that for us in spades, and neither Book nor KD is wired like that. They just don't do it. And it does seem like a great NBA team needs at least 1-2 guys like that. You can really feel the absence of it on our team the past 2 years.

So I think Book/KD's leadership is a mixed bag. They do provide a lot of it, but a really important piece of it is missing, and we feel it every game. I think if we had a barker like CP3 on the roster who the players listened to and respected, you would see much better outcomes even from the same flawed roster we have today.

I hear ya. We need a barker and someone who’ll be able to hold people accountable.

[ShelC]

We've talked about the leadership thing all year, even going back to last year.

I think Book is a better leader than KD in a lot of those things, maybe because he's invested in the org and feels that responsibility. KD's never been a leader because he's never wanted that responsibility of being the face of a franchise. And I also think Book's held back on some of the barking or criticism because of KD and his stature as a player. I think Book can lead guys like CG, Dunn and Oso on the court.

But there is the on-court, game leadership that Book can't provide. The floor general, controlling the game, controlling possessions, making those defensive calls or switches, etc that CP provided. That's why we need a true PG- a coach on the floor - with this team. That's been my main argument against fulltime PointBook. I think CG can provide that PG mentality and coach-on-the-floor, but is he good enough to be a fulltime starter who can defend and hit shots the way we need.

[BigLewy]

I’d argue this team has zero leader…. Books not a leader just like KD. They’re just hoopers through and through and don’t want responsibility of anyone else.

This is an interesting comment. I do agree with your comment that we lack something from our team leaders, and it makes me think about the nature of "leadership" from a player. IMO you can provide more than one kind of leadership, with differing effects. You can be a leader in terms of being a team's centerpiece player, the main scorer, the guy who gets double-teamed and hacked and focused on by the other team, the guy who will take the big shot under pressure to try to carry the team to a win. And I think Book and KD both provide THAT kind of leadership. And that counts for something. Both of those guys do lead in the way I just described. There's also leading by example: showing up early to practice, working on your craft, working hard, putting in the time, giving a shit. I think Book (moreso) and KD also provide THAT kind of leadership. You should aspire to work as hard as they do to improve.

But there's the other kind of player leadership, the kind Kryptonic is talking about, which is more like vocal or motivational in-game leadership. Barking at your teammates to get them to hustle. Calling out defensive rotations and plays. Basically just being in everyone's ear the whole game. Clearly CP3 provided that for us in spades, and neither Book nor KD is wired like that. They just don't do it. And it does seem like a great NBA team needs at least 1-2 guys like that. You can really feel the absence of it on our team the past 2 years.

So I think Book/KD's leadership is a mixed bag. They do provide a lot of it, but a really important piece of it is missing, and we feel it every game. I think if we had a barker like CP3 on the roster who the players listened to and respected, you would see much better outcomes even from the same flawed roster we have today.

I hear ya. We need a barker and someone who’ll be able to hold people accountable.

We needed Jimmy Butler.....stupid Beal NTC.

[Kryptonic]

I’d argue this team has zero leader…. Books not a leader just like KD. They’re just hoopers through and through and don’t want responsibility of anyone else.

This is an interesting comment. I do agree with your comment that we lack something from our team leaders, and it makes me think about the nature of "leadership" from a player. IMO you can provide more than one kind of leadership, with differing effects. You can be a leader in terms of being a team's centerpiece player, the main scorer, the guy who gets double-teamed and hacked and focused on by the other team, the guy who will take the big shot under pressure to try to carry the team to a win. And I think Book and KD both provide THAT kind of leadership. And that counts for something. Both of those guys do lead in the way I just described. There's also leading by example: showing up early to practice, working on your craft, working hard, putting in the time, giving a shit. I think Book (moreso) and KD also provide THAT kind of leadership. You should aspire to work as hard as they do to improve.

But there's the other kind of player leadership, the kind Kryptonic is talking about, which is more like vocal or motivational in-game leadership. Barking at your teammates to get them to hustle. Calling out defensive rotations and plays. Basically just being in everyone's ear the whole game. Clearly CP3 provided that for us in spades, and neither Book nor KD is wired like that. They just don't do it. And it does seem like a great NBA team needs at least 1-2 guys like that. You can really feel the absence of it on our team the past 2 years.

So I think Book/KD's leadership is a mixed bag. They do provide a lot of it, but a really important piece of it is missing, and we feel it every game. I think if we had a barker like CP3 on the roster who the players listened to and respected, you would see much better outcomes even from the same flawed roster we have today.

I hear ya. We need a barker and someone who’ll be able to hold people accountable.

We needed Jimmy Butler.....stupid Beal NTC.

Honestly I think it would have had a huge impact. Love him or hate him, he’s the bulldog we needed.