Suns News: Week 9 (12/16 - 12/22)

[specialsauce]

I think I’d draw the line at including Dunn or Oso…but while I wouldn’t want to, I’d include 31. That’s far enough out that I think we can go all in for 1.5 years, dump Booker to Houston if it fails, to get our picks back, then tank for a few years to be good again by 2031.

IMO there's no way Miami considers a Butler / Beal trade without our 2031 1st being in the trade. And my guess is that before long, Ishbia and JJ will surrender it. Even that might not be enough to get a deal done given than Jimmy is having big games while Beal is already getting hurt.

I don't get this thinking. Beal and Butler are comparable players. Suns aren't sending trash. I don't see a reason to send the '31 pick, which could be very valuable. Maybe I get on board with a 2nd, but I still think these players are about equal.

It really feels like this board undervalues Suns players and by a lot.

Uh with all due respect Carne, you ain't seen no Brad Beal turn into "HIM" in the playoffs. Butler may not have a title but his playoff moments shit on Brads whole career.

A different leader. A different caliber of player.

HIMOTHY butler is exactly what this team is missing. I would include Dunn, Oso or the 31 to get it done if I'm Phoenix.

[specialsauce]

Ryan's FT numbers are extremely concerning. I've never seen a player be a consistent offensive perimeter player who sucks ass at free throws

Ben Wallace figured it out.

I might be Ben Wallace's biggest fan, I don't know if he could play in today's game.

Ben Wallace was not a perimeter player. He played Center.

[Split T]

I think I’d draw the line at including Dunn or Oso…but while I wouldn’t want to, I’d include 31. That’s far enough out that I think we can go all in for 1.5 years, dump Booker to Houston if it fails, to get our picks back, then tank for a few years to be good again by 2031.

IMO there's no way Miami considers a Butler / Beal trade without our 2031 1st being in the trade. And my guess is that before long, Ishbia and JJ will surrender it. Even that might not be enough to get a deal done given than Jimmy is having big games while Beal is already getting hurt.

Ya I tend to agree…though we may find that Miami doesn’t have much leverage with a prepared to walk Jimmy Butler. The 1st would be to pay for Beal in the future though, not as compensation for Butler. I saw an idea from someone that Beal would be more open to LA…could a 3 team deal where Miami gets less complicated contracts back make more sense? Say something around D-Lo and Rui?

[Split T]

I think I’d draw the line at including Dunn or Oso…but while I wouldn’t want to, I’d include 31. That’s far enough out that I think we can go all in for 1.5 years, dump Booker to Houston if it fails, to get our picks back, then tank for a few years to be good again by 2031.

IMO there's no way Miami considers a Butler / Beal trade without our 2031 1st being in the trade. And my guess is that before long, Ishbia and JJ will surrender it. Even that might not be enough to get a deal done given than Jimmy is having big games while Beal is already getting hurt.

I don't get this thinking. Beal and Butler are comparable players. Suns aren't sending trash. I don't see a reason to send the '31 pick, which could be very valuable. Maybe I get on board with a 2nd, but I still think these players are about equal.

It really feels like this board undervalues Suns players and by a lot.

Butler is a better player than Beal…He might not be leaps and bounds better, but he’s better. Add in that Beal isn’t a great fit for Miami(similar problem in that their best perimeter player is also a SG) and he has the exact contract they refused to give Jimmy and one can see why Miami isn’t thrilled to pull the trigger. Doesn’t even bring the NTC into the picture.

The more I think about it, the more I think this would have to be a 3-team trade. We need to find someone that wants Beal and that Beal also wants(Lakers really are the only team that comes to mind). That or we need to make it worth it for Miami and that means 2031 at a minimum.

[BigLewy]

I think I’d draw the line at including Dunn or Oso…but while I wouldn’t want to, I’d include 31. That’s far enough out that I think we can go all in for 1.5 years, dump Booker to Houston if it fails, to get our picks back, then tank for a few years to be good again by 2031.

IMO there's no way Miami considers a Butler / Beal trade without our 2031 1st being in the trade. And my guess is that before long, Ishbia and JJ will surrender it. Even that might not be enough to get a deal done given than Jimmy is having big games while Beal is already getting hurt.

I don't get this thinking. Beal and Butler are comparable players. Suns aren't sending trash. I don't see a reason to send the '31 pick, which could be very valuable. Maybe I get on board with a 2nd, but I still think these players are about equal.

It really feels like this board undervalues Suns players and by a lot.

I agree, but I think it's about the contract and how it's valued by each organization. I think that the Suns sign Jimmy to a $100 mil contract extension, but Miami may want out of the apron and value the cap space or tax relief.

So one thought I had in the unlikely event this deal actually happens. If Jimmy opts out of his deal to become an UFA, would that take us below the second apron for a bit? And then he signs a new deal to put us back over again. Reason I ask is I know there are stupid penalties like being in the second apron XXX number of years and then you can't trade any first rounders or your first rounders are the last pick in the round. So, would it be a mini "reset" from the second apron, and then the team goes all in for 2 more years of Jimmy after going over the second apron again?

[ShelC]

Butler checks a few boxes off for us more than Beal - better roster fit, better defender, more availability. But really, he doesn't move the needle where we need it most - in the frontcourt. I'd make the deal, but he's not some missing piece that's going to solve all our problems.

[Superbone]

Butler checks a few boxes off for us more than Beal - better roster fit, better defender, more availability. But really, he doesn't move the needle where we need it most - in the frontcourt. I'd make the deal, but he's not some missing piece that's going to solve all our problems.

No, but I think if we can swap Beal and Butler, we'd be a more fun team to watch and get a few more victories. As a fan, I'll take that.

[In2ition]

Isn't he about 4 inches taller than Bradley? I think he's decent at guarding 1-4 in a switch and rebounding, which would help the frontcourt.

[TOO]

Isn't he about 4 inches taller than Bradley? I think he's decent at guarding 1-4 in a switch and rebounding, which would help the frontcourt.

Yes. Butler is a superior roster fit, big enough to even play a small 4 if needed. He's not the POA defender he once was but he's still good enough.

[ShelC]

He's a 2/3. If KD goes down and he's playing the 4, we're still cooked.

[Carno]

I like Butler better for the Suns than Beal, so yeah, I'd rather have Butler. They are different players and fit different needs, but impact wise, outside of team fit, I think they are close. Career stats are similar but Beal scores more and shoots much better from 3; Butler is the better defender. Beal is significantly younger. Health wise, they've been pretty similar. Butler has played in 252 games since the 2019-20 season while Beal has played in 275.

People are down on Beal because he's been marginalized on the Suns; he's the 3rd best player and too similar to Book. He can't focus on his best skill, which is scoring. On the Heat, he will be the best player and won't be marginalized.

The Heat are in a bad spot. If they don't take Beal, they risk losing Butler for nothing. Beal is much, much better than nothing. Toss in the potential '31 lottery pick? You all are nuts.

[Carno]

I think I’d draw the line at including Dunn or Oso…but while I wouldn’t want to, I’d include 31. That’s far enough out that I think we can go all in for 1.5 years, dump Booker to Houston if it fails, to get our picks back, then tank for a few years to be good again by 2031.

IMO there's no way Miami considers a Butler / Beal trade without our 2031 1st being in the trade. And my guess is that before long, Ishbia and JJ will surrender it. Even that might not be enough to get a deal done given than Jimmy is having big games while Beal is already getting hurt.

I don't get this thinking. Beal and Butler are comparable players. Suns aren't sending trash. I don't see a reason to send the '31 pick, which could be very valuable. Maybe I get on board with a 2nd, but I still think these players are about equal.

It really feels like this board undervalues Suns players and by a lot.

Butler is a better player than Beal…He might not be leaps and bounds better, but he’s better. Add in that Beal isn’t a great fit for Miami(similar problem in that their best perimeter player is also a SG) and he has the exact contract they refused to give Jimmy and one can see why Miami isn’t thrilled to pull the trigger. Doesn’t even bring the NTC into the picture.

The more I think about it, the more I think this would have to be a 3-team trade. We need to find someone that wants Beal and that Beal also wants(Lakers really are the only team that comes to mind). That or we need to make it worth it for Miami and that means 2031 at a minimum.

We don't know the exact reason Miami doesn't want to extend Butler. It might be age, money, 2nd apron, or because he's a moment away from fist fighting Spoelstra. It's probably a combination of all of that. The calculus is a little different with Beal, with age and demeaner maybe being enough to give Beal the edge.

One thing we know for sure, if/when Butler gets traded, he won't be looking in the rearview mirror!

[Wally_West]

I think I’d draw the line at including Dunn or Oso…but while I wouldn’t want to, I’d include 31. That’s far enough out that I think we can go all in for 1.5 years, dump Booker to Houston if it fails, to get our picks back, then tank for a few years to be good again by 2031.

IMO there's no way Miami considers a Butler / Beal trade without our 2031 1st being in the trade. And my guess is that before long, Ishbia and JJ will surrender it. Even that might not be enough to get a deal done given than Jimmy is having big games while Beal is already getting hurt.

I don't get this thinking. Beal and Butler are comparable players. Suns aren't sending trash. I don't see a reason to send the '31 pick, which could be very valuable. Maybe I get on board with a 2nd, but I still think these players are about equal.

It really feels like this board undervalues Suns players and by a lot.

I think availability is more important than ability for the top tier players. Beal is a fringe top tier play with very low availability, which kills a ton of his value.

If we are being real, Jimmy misses as much games as Beal does. The difference is come playoff time, he turns into a fucking demon. He would’ve willed at least two wins against the twolves last year lol

[ShelC]

I call him Jimmy Sandbags because my theory is that Jimmy sandbags during the regular season. He plays at about 60%, averaging 18ppg and the Heat end up a 6-7-8 seed, thus the postseason expectations are lower. Then in the playoffs he plays up to his ability, averages his 26-28ppg and gets the Heat to the 2nd Round and all of a sudden he's "Himmy", "he's a playoff performer", "he steps up when the lights are brightest". When in reality, he could average 25ppg in the regular season, lead the Heat to a 3 seed and make the 2nd round but because expectations are higher, it'd be a disappointment and people would say he's not a real star.

[Split T]

He got the Heat to two finals, not the 2nd round. And he didn’t have anyone as good as Book or KD on his team. I don’t care if he sandbags the regular season a bit if it means we are good in the playoffs.

[Split T]

Butler checks a few boxes off for us more than Beal - better roster fit, better defender, more availability. But really, he doesn't move the needle where we need it most - in the frontcourt. I'd make the deal, but he's not some missing piece that's going to solve all our problems.

Of course not, but I think you are discounting how much better of a fit he is. We have two huge problems:

1. No reliable center
2. Too small on the wing

He clearly fixes number 2 and makes the roster make more sense 1-4

1. Tyus/Morris
2. Booker/Allen
3. Butler/O’Neale
4. KD/Dunn

That’s way better than it was. It’s a no brainer move. Sure, it doesn’t mean the work is done, but I’m not going to complain because it doesn’t solve all our problems. There’s no 1 solution to all our problems.

[Split T]

I think I’d draw the line at including Dunn or Oso…but while I wouldn’t want to, I’d include 31. That’s far enough out that I think we can go all in for 1.5 years, dump Booker to Houston if it fails, to get our picks back, then tank for a few years to be good again by 2031.

IMO there's no way Miami considers a Butler / Beal trade without our 2031 1st being in the trade. And my guess is that before long, Ishbia and JJ will surrender it. Even that might not be enough to get a deal done given than Jimmy is having big games while Beal is already getting hurt.

I don't get this thinking. Beal and Butler are comparable players. Suns aren't sending trash. I don't see a reason to send the '31 pick, which could be very valuable. Maybe I get on board with a 2nd, but I still think these players are about equal.

It really feels like this board undervalues Suns players and by a lot.

Butler is a better player than Beal…He might not be leaps and bounds better, but he’s better. Add in that Beal isn’t a great fit for Miami(similar problem in that their best perimeter player is also a SG) and he has the exact contract they refused to give Jimmy and one can see why Miami isn’t thrilled to pull the trigger. Doesn’t even bring the NTC into the picture.

The more I think about it, the more I think this would have to be a 3-team trade. We need to find someone that wants Beal and that Beal also wants(Lakers really are the only team that comes to mind). That or we need to make it worth it for Miami and that means 2031 at a minimum.

We don't know the exact reason Miami doesn't want to extend Butler. It might be age, money, 2nd apron, or because he's a moment away from fist fighting Spoelstra. It's probably a combination of all of that. The calculus is a little different with Beal, with age and demeaner maybe being enough to give Beal the edge.

One thing we know for sure, if/when Butler gets traded, he won't be looking in the rearview mirror!

True. It might be a little different. But I’m just trying to look at this without bias. Miami knows this is a huge win for us…they are clearly going to ask for compensation. There will be some negotiating and I hope we can find a way to not include 2031…I just would give that up if the alternative was not getting Butler.

[Ring_Wanted]

Ryan's FT numbers are extremely concerning. I've never seen a player be a consistent offensive perimeter player who sucks ass at free throws

Ben Wallace figured it out.

I might be Ben Wallace's biggest fan, I don't know if he could play in today's game.

Ben Wallace was not a perimeter player. He played Center.

Bruce Bowen. 40% 3pt, all NBA defense, terrible FTs. Might not be what you mean by consistent offensive player, but I'd be ecstatic if Dunn delivers 75% of Bowen's impact on a winning team.

[Ring_Wanted]

IMO there's no way Miami considers a Butler / Beal trade without our 2031 1st being in the trade. And my guess is that before long, Ishbia and JJ will surrender it. Even that might not be enough to get a deal done given than Jimmy is having big games while Beal is already getting hurt.

I don't get this thinking. Beal and Butler are comparable players. Suns aren't sending trash. I don't see a reason to send the '31 pick, which could be very valuable. Maybe I get on board with a 2nd, but I still think these players are about equal.

It really feels like this board undervalues Suns players and by a lot.

Butler is a better player than Beal…He might not be leaps and bounds better, but he’s better. Add in that Beal isn’t a great fit for Miami(similar problem in that their best perimeter player is also a SG) and he has the exact contract they refused to give Jimmy and one can see why Miami isn’t thrilled to pull the trigger. Doesn’t even bring the NTC into the picture.

The more I think about it, the more I think this would have to be a 3-team trade. We need to find someone that wants Beal and that Beal also wants(Lakers really are the only team that comes to mind). That or we need to make it worth it for Miami and that means 2031 at a minimum.

We don't know the exact reason Miami doesn't want to extend Butler. It might be age, money, 2nd apron, or because he's a moment away from fist fighting Spoelstra. It's probably a combination of all of that. The calculus is a little different with Beal, with age and demeaner maybe being enough to give Beal the edge.

One thing we know for sure, if/when Butler gets traded, he won't be looking in the rearview mirror!

True. It might be a little different. But I’m just trying to look at this without bias. Miami knows this is a huge win for us…they are clearly going to ask for compensation. There will be some negotiating and I hope we can find a way to not include 2031…I just would give that up if the alternative was not getting Butler.

Agreed. And since trading for Butler would respond to the goal of winning it all with Durant and Booker, keeping two pieces like Dunn and Oso is more interesting than holding onto the 2031 pick. I guess we will see.

As for why MIA and Butler are not in agreement, I imagine it comes down to money, plain and simple. It was rumored that MIA put on the table a two-year extension worth $113 million, but that's probably too short in Butler's eyes since by becoming a free agent he can get almost 4/250M; and at that range, I can see why Riley is balking considering Butler's age and the fact that MIA's roster ceiling is basically exhausted, with little flexibility to improve.

Now, on how Beal would play into MIA's exit plan from Butler, I guess it could be an acceptable compromise if they want to avoid rebuilding for one or two more seasons, while not having the extra years under insane money that Butler would require. If I am MIA, would that be better than just letting Butler leave as a free agent? We don't know how they value Beal the player, but in any case I'd have to look at the additional compensation (if any) that I was offered. For Dunn I do it 100%. Oso, too little and I already have Ware and Jovic behind Bam, so no. The 2031 pick? 100% no question. 2ndR picks? Nah. Again, I guess we will see.

[Superbone]

Same ol', same ol'