Is KD coming to the Suns?

[The Bobster]

Don’t get me wrong, if we get KD and then swap DA for Turner in our lineup that’s a win to me.

But let’s not pretend like it’s not a sizable downgrade in talent and potential at that position going forward.

It’s a downgrade, I just don’t think it’ll be that noticeable. Where we’d see it the most is probably on the glass and when we play a physical post presence like Jokic. I think Turner could get bullied a bit.

I’m not sure who’s truly the better rim protector, Turner obviously blocks a lot more shots, but Ayton still does a fantastic job making it difficult to score at the rim. I’d have to look closer at that. Can’t say I know how Turner is in space either. Ayton is pretty good when he’s locked in, but that comes and goes.

Offensively I’m not sure we’d see much of a drop off. Turner is a better floor spacer and while I don’t think we’ll see Ayton level efficiency closer in, I think playing with CP3 would do wonders for Turner. So would being the only big, he had to share the paint with Sabonis, now he’d have it to himself.

Ultimately I think it would be hard to tell the difference looking at a box score. Ayton would probably be 17/10 with a .650 TS and Turner would drop 16/8 on a .635 TS. Both would play borderline All-NBA defense, just maybe with different strengths.

And then there's the rebounding.......

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Don’t get me wrong, if we get KD and then swap DA for Turner in our lineup that’s a win to me.

But let’s not pretend like it’s not a sizable downgrade in talent and potential at that position going forward.

It’s a downgrade, I just don’t think it’ll be that noticeable. Where we’d see it the most is probably on the glass and when we play a physical post presence like Jokic. I think Turner could get bullied a bit.

I’m not sure who’s truly the better rim protector, Turner obviously blocks a lot more shots, but Ayton still does a fantastic job making it difficult to score at the rim. I’d have to look closer at that. Can’t say I know how Turner is in space either. Ayton is pretty good when he’s locked in, but that comes and goes.

Offensively I’m not sure we’d see much of a drop off. Turner is a better floor spacer and while I don’t think we’ll see Ayton level efficiency closer in, I think playing with CP3 would do wonders for Turner. So would being the only big, he had to share the paint with Sabonis, now he’d have it to himself.

Ultimately I think it would be hard to tell the difference looking at a box score. Ayton would probably be 17/10 with a .650 TS and Turner would drop 16/8 on a .635 TS. Both would play borderline All-NBA defense, just maybe with different strengths.

My point from my prior post...I wonder how much DAs numbers fall off without a quality PG like CP3 feeding him (its not like there are that many,) and conversely, its not like Paul wouldn't have some effect on another player in the rotation (or at least, likely so...)

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Eyeballing it, my bet is Turner's FG % goes up 5-7%, which if so would put his 'average' PPG on par with DA. I think we'd be picking up a little on defense and we'd get some benefit from a bit more aggression on offense...and again w/CP feeding him, perhaps that gets better too...

[Mori Chu]

I'm just not buying that Myles Turner is basically as good or better than Ayton. Ayton is a great defender and a solid rebounder. Ayton is also only, what, 23? So he has room to grow and improve.

[AmareIsGod]

I'm just not buying that Myles Turner is basically as good or better than Ayton. Ayton is a great defender and a solid rebounder. Ayton is also only, what, 23? So he has room to grow and improve.

It's a way for people to feel better about the return. They aren't the same.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

I'm just not buying that Myles Turner is basically as good or better than Ayton. Ayton is a great defender and a solid rebounder. Ayton is also only, what, 23? So he has room to grow and improve.

It's a way for people to feel better about the return. They aren't the same.

I don't think anybody thinks its the same...just that the fall of isn't going to be the complete collapse that some people are expressing. If they got Turner and maybe some picks or some such, that won't be a complete disaster...

[JeremyG]

Don’t get me wrong, if we get KD and then swap DA for Turner in our lineup that’s a win to me.

But let’s not pretend like it’s not a sizable downgrade in talent and potential at that position going forward.

It’s a downgrade, I just don’t think it’ll be that noticeable. Where we’d see it the most is probably on the glass and when we play a physical post presence like Jokic. I think Turner could get bullied a bit.

I’m not sure who’s truly the better rim protector, Turner obviously blocks a lot more shots, but Ayton still does a fantastic job making it difficult to score at the rim. I’d have to look closer at that. Can’t say I know how Turner is in space either. Ayton is pretty good when he’s locked in, but that comes and goes.

Offensively I’m not sure we’d see much of a drop off. Turner is a better floor spacer and while I don’t think we’ll see Ayton level efficiency closer in, I think playing with CP3 would do wonders for Turner. So would being the only big, he had to share the paint with Sabonis, now he’d have it to himself.

Ultimately I think it would be hard to tell the difference looking at a box score. Ayton would probably be 17/10 with a .650 TS and Turner would drop 16/8 on a .635 TS. Both would play borderline All-NBA defense, just maybe with different strengths.

My point from my prior post...I wonder how much DAs numbers fall off without a quality PG like CP3 feeding him (its not like there are that many,) and conversely, its not like Paul wouldn't have some effect on another player in the rotation (or at least, likely so...)

That argument always astounds me. We have history on that. He scored more PPG in the two seasons before CP3 than he did in the two seasons with CP3. And that was his first two years in the league. And his rookie year we had no point guard.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Jeremy...his FG% went up like 5%+...if you don't think CP3 improved Ayton, you're crazy...there's a reason good PGs matter. A good PG gets the right player the ball, in the right position, to maximize their effectiveness...

[virtual9mm]

I'm just not buying that Myles Turner is basically as good or better than Ayton. Ayton is a great defender and a solid rebounder. Ayton is also only, what, 23? So he has room to grow and improve.

It's a way for people to feel better about the return. They aren't the same.

I don't think anybody thinks its the same...just that the fall of isn't going to be the complete collapse that some people are expressing. If they got Turner and maybe some picks or some such, that won't be a complete disaster...

JJ for Diaw all over again.

[TOO]

I'm just not buying that Myles Turner is basically as good or better than Ayton. Ayton is a great defender and a solid rebounder. Ayton is also only, what, 23? So he has room to grow and improve.

Turner just turned 26, Ayton is about to turn 24, there is a minimal age difference here.

[Mori Chu]

Yeah, I mean who would want a 24-year-old center likely to be one of the top 2-3 centers in the league for a decade, when you can have a 26-year-old mediocre center with no elite skills whatsoever?

[The Bobster]

My biggest concern -

Career rebounds pre 36 min - Ayton 12.3, Turner 8.4

You team him with Crowder and Bridges and that's one of the worst rebounding front lines in the league.

[Split T]

Yeah, I mean who would want a 24-year-old center likely to be one of the top 2-3 centers in the league for a decade, when you can have a 26-year-old mediocre center with no elite skills whatsoever?

Ya let’s pay the 24 year old C who sleeps 2 hours a night because he’s addicted to video games and refuses to dunk and wants to be a PF. Oh ya, he wants a max contract too.

Also your ignorance is showing on Turner. He definitely has elite skills, he’s very much an elite shot blocker. What are DA’s elite skills? I guess that little push shot from 7 feet he had to develop because he’s too afraid to dunk.

The thing is we’re talking about 2 guys who are both role players. Neither one of them have any sort of shot creation skills. They are both dependent on others to get them shots, they are 3rd/4th guys at best. Ya Ayton is better, but Turner is actually paid like a 3rd/4th guy and he’s not pretending to be more than that. Ayton thinks he’s Kevin Garnett when he’s Jarrett Allen.

[Split T]

My biggest concern -

Career rebounds pre 36 min - Ayton 12.3, Turner 8.4

You team him with Crowder and Bridges and that's one of the worst rebounding front lines in the league.

KD is a great rebounder. Rebounding is also one of the most misleading stats there is.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Yeah, I mean who would want a 24-year-old center likely to be one of the top 2-3 centers in the league for a decade, when you can have a 26-year-old mediocre center with no elite skills whatsoever?

Better to let him walk and have nothing to show for it?

[TOO]

Yeah, I mean who would want a 24-year-old center likely to be one of the top 2-3 centers in the league for a decade, when you can have a 26-year-old mediocre center with no elite skills whatsoever?

Having a top 3 C in a league dominated by wings and guards doesn't mean anything to me. Especially when he cant get his own shot.

Turner's got more "elite" skills than Ayton. His shot blocking is absolutely elite.

[TOO]

Yeah, I mean who would want a 24-year-old center likely to be one of the top 2-3 centers in the league for a decade, when you can have a 26-year-old mediocre center with no elite skills whatsoever?

Ya let’s pay the 24 year old C who sleeps 2 hours a night because he’s addicted to video games and refuses to dunk and wants to be a PF. Oh ya, he wants a max contract too.

Also your ignorance is showing on Turner. He definitely has elite skills, he’s very much an elite shot blocker. What are DA’s elite skills? I guess that little push shot from 7 feet he had to develop because he’s too afraid to dunk.

The thing is we’re talking about 2 guys who are both role players. Neither one of them have any sort of shot creation skills. They are both dependent on others to get them shots, they are 3rd/4th guys at best. Ya Ayton is better, but Turner is actually paid like a 3rd/4th guy and he’s not pretending to be more than that. Ayton thinks he’s Kevin Garnett when he’s Jarrett Allen.

Jarrett Allen actually dunks. (he was also better than Ayton last year in a lot of metrics)

[Split T]

Also I think there’s very little chance Ayton is ever a top 3 C. He’s never going to be better than Jokic and Embiid. I guess KAT is gonna be playing the 4 now, but he’s not better than KAT or Bam. We’ve got Chet who was just drafted and Victor Wembanyama is coming next draft. I think Ayton tops out as a top 5-ish C.

[Vladimir_Taltos]

Also I think there’s very little chance Ayton is ever a top 3 C. He’s never going to be better than Jokic and Embiid. I guess KAT is gonna be playing the 4 now, but he’s not better than KAT or Bam. We’ve got Chet who was just drafted and Victor Wembanyama is coming next draft. I think Ayton tops out as a top 5-ish C.

He plays soft...I also think splitting hairs on C/PF is always a question. The value of an aggressive, physical player in the paint is the issue...which is rebounding, yes, but its also the ability to create and draw defenders when you have the ball in the paint, while physically establishing your presence. Note Giannis two year before and we folded like a cheap suit. Hell, this year, a certain PG had more aggression than our 6'11" center. We don't have a dominant interior player...its DEFINTELY not DA...100th...1 0 0th...in FTA per game last year! (I should have said here also..'...in respect to them being a max contract player...', that being the point...)

[Mori Chu]

I would rather have Ayton than KAT or Bam, personally. So to me he's a top-3 center on a team that has good guards/wings. But I agree that it's subjective.