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Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 5:05 pm
by Superbone
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:22 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:03 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 3:53 pm
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 2:51 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 12:44 pm
1. We have to trade Booker.
2. We will refuse to trade Booker.
3. We will be ruined until Booker retires.
The Suns built a team around Booker that was 2 wins shy of a title. Why are we ruined until he retires?
And he couldn’t win it, could he? That was the closest we will ever get with him.
Because he has regressed post-CP3 and he is not an alpha-leader who can take you to a championship. He isn’t even an All-Star anymore.
It’s stunning how this isn’t obvious to everyone. Book=no title. Certainly not with him making the SuperMax.
Barkley also = no title. Stockton/Malone = no title. Doesn't mean anything. Basketball is a team sport.
And your point is…? My point was keeping Book=no title. And I want a title.
My point is it doesn't matter how great you are. You need the right team around you and the right circumstances everywhere else.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 6:50 pm
by Vladimir_Taltos
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 5:05 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:22 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:03 pm
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 3:53 pm
Mori Chu wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 2:51 pm
The Suns built a team around Booker that was 2 wins shy of a title. Why are we ruined until he retires?
And he couldn’t win it, could he? That was the closest we will ever get with him.
Because he has regressed post-CP3 and he is not an alpha-leader who can take you to a championship. He isn’t even an All-Star anymore.
It’s stunning how this isn’t obvious to everyone. Book=no title. Certainly not with him making the SuperMax.
Barkley also = no title. Stockton/Malone = no title. Doesn't mean anything. Basketball is a team sport.
And your point is…? My point was keeping Book=no title. And I want a title.
My point is it doesn't matter how great you are. You need the right team around you and the right circumstances everywhere else.
Sup, he's just on spin cycle to try to find an equivalency to piss people off vs. his Ayton Mancrush...don't even...
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:51 pm
by The Bobster
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:00 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 10:26 am
Booker is not getting traded the season after he set the franchise scoring record, sorry.
Davis was the record holder when we traded him, and that was a time when stars moved a lot less.
They let him leave as a free agent, but same difference. It was right after the drug scandal where he testified against his teammates in front of the grand jury, so it wasn't surprising.
However, if they can trade beloved players like Dan Majerle, Paul Silas and Paul Westphal, you can't rule anything out.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:26 pm
by Charlie Smithy!
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:51 pm
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:00 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 10:26 am
Booker is not getting traded the season after he set the franchise scoring record, sorry.
Davis was the record holder when we traded him, and that was a time when stars moved a lot less.
They let him leave as a free agent, but same difference. It was right after the drug scandal where he testified against his teammates in front of the grand jury, so it wasn't surprising.
However, if they can trade beloved players like Dan Majerle, Paul Silas and Paul Westphal, you can't rule anything out.
Bob, I know that Dan Majerle was only 30 when we traded him. Was his body already breaking down by then? Because as a kid, I was beyond shocked that we traded him, and even more shocked that he was traded for Hot Rod Williams. Who I believe was even older than Dan Majerle by two or three years. Did Jerry Colangelo really think that John Williams was going to move anything resembling the metaphorical needle for our team in 1996?
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:43 pm
by Kryptonic
Charlie Smithy! wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:26 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:51 pm
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:00 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 10:26 am
Booker is not getting traded the season after he set the franchise scoring record, sorry.
Davis was the record holder when we traded him, and that was a time when stars moved a lot less.
They let him leave as a free agent, but same difference. It was right after the drug scandal where he testified against his teammates in front of the grand jury, so it wasn't surprising.
However, if they can trade beloved players like Dan Majerle, Paul Silas and Paul Westphal, you can't rule anything out.
Bob, I know that Dan Majerle was only 30 when we traded him. Was his body already breaking down by then? Because as a kid, I was beyond shocked that we traded him, and even more shocked that he was traded for Hot Rod Williams. Who I believe was even older than Dan Majerle by two or three years. Did Jerry Colangelo really think that John Williams was going to move anything resembling the metaphorical needle for our team in 1996?
Ugh…. Hated no rod…. Simply because of losing majerle.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:56 pm
by The Bobster
I remember years ago when Cotton Fitzsimmons rejoined the Suns' front office (sometime between 1986 and 1988), and they were interviewing him what the Suns needed to do get better results (John MacLeod had been fired and was replaced in the interim by Dick Van Arsdale and then by John Wetzel in 1987), and you expect to hear something like "We need to rebound better" or "We're going through a tough stretch" or some other coach speak, but Cotton came out and said "The Suns need better players."
And it was true then and it's true now. They don't have the players to match up a lot of nights. They're small, unathletic and they can't execute on offense or defense. Cap recently made a reference to "shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic" and it's true. If you don't have the talent to compete, it doesn't matter how you reshuffle it. They just need to get better players.
Now finding a way to will be difficult. It's probably going to mean cleaning house because they don't have a lot of players they can trade and get much in return for.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:11 pm
by Cap
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:56 pm
I remember years ago when Cotton Fitzsimmons rejoined the Suns' front office (sometime between 1986 and 1988), and they were interviewing him what the Suns needed to do get better results (John MacLeod had been fired and was replaced in the interim by Dick Van Arsdale and then by John Wetzel in 1987), and you expect to hear something like "We need to rebound better" or "We're going through a tough stretch" or some other coach speak, but Cotton came out and said "The Suns need better players."
And it was true then and it's true now. They don't have the players to match up a lot of nights. They're small, unathletic and they can't execute on offense or defense. Cap recently made a reference to "shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic" and it's true. If you don't have the talent to compete, it doesn't matter how you reshuffle it. They just need to get better players.
Now finding a way to will be difficult. It's probably going to mean cleaning house because they don't have a lot of players they can trade and get much in return for.
Kevin Johnson, Ty Corbin, Mark West and a pick swap weren’t “much.” I miss having guys like Jerry and Cotton who knew how to get much when they didn’t have much.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:27 pm
by iLLmatic
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:11 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:56 pm
I remember years ago when Cotton Fitzsimmons rejoined the Suns' front office (sometime between 1986 and 1988), and they were interviewing him what the Suns needed to do get better results (John MacLeod had been fired and was replaced in the interim by Dick Van Arsdale and then by John Wetzel in 1987), and you expect to hear something like "We need to rebound better" or "We're going through a tough stretch" or some other coach speak, but Cotton came out and said "The Suns need better players."
And it was true then and it's true now. They don't have the players to match up a lot of nights. They're small, unathletic and they can't execute on offense or defense. Cap recently made a reference to "shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic" and it's true. If you don't have the talent to compete, it doesn't matter how you reshuffle it. They just need to get better players.
Now finding a way to will be difficult. It's probably going to mean cleaning house because they don't have a lot of players they can trade and get much in return for.
Kevin Johnson, Ty Corbin, Mark West and a pick swap weren’t “much.” I miss having guys like Jerry and Cotton who knew how to get much when they didn’t have much.
The good ol days.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:33 pm
by The Bobster
Well, they basically turned Nance, Sanders and a #1 pick (Randolph Keys) into Johnson, West, Corbin, a #1 (Majerle) and 2 #2's (Dean Garrett and Greg Grant). Add in a couple of minor side deals unloading James Edwards and Jay Humpries, and a big signing in the offseason (Chambers) and they turned it around the next year.
The current braintrust hasn't shown that sort of acumen though, so I'm not holding my breath.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:48 pm
by JeremyG
Charlie Smithy! wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:26 pm
The Bobster wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:51 pm
Cap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:00 pm
Superbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 10:26 am
Booker is not getting traded the season after he set the franchise scoring record, sorry.
Davis was the record holder when we traded him, and that was a time when stars moved a lot less.
They let him leave as a free agent, but same difference. It was right after the drug scandal where he testified against his teammates in front of the grand jury, so it wasn't surprising.
However, if they can trade beloved players like Dan Majerle, Paul Silas and Paul Westphal, you can't rule anything out.
Bob, I know that Dan Majerle was only 30 when we traded him. Was his body already breaking down by then? Because as a kid, I was beyond shocked that we traded him, and even more shocked that he was traded for Hot Rod Williams. Who I believe was even older than Dan Majerle by two or three years. Did Jerry Colangelo really think that John Williams was going to move anything resembling the metaphorical needle for our team in 1996?
I don’t think his body was breaking down, he was coming off an All-Star season. I think Jerry just thought we needed a center, perhaps due to just having been eliminated by Olajuwon two years in a row. But it pissed off Barkley and things were never the same.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:53 pm
by The Bobster
Majerle for Hot Rod was simply a trade that didn't really work out like either team hoped - both guys had already peaked and were on the backside of their careers.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 10:18 pm
by Vladimir_Taltos
Wonder how the D'Backs and Orioles are going to do this year?
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2025 11:07 pm
by Split T
JeremyG wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 12:44 pm
1. We have to trade Booker.
2. We will refuse to trade Booker.
3. We will be ruined until Booker retires.
Yeesh, just go watch the Blazers
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2025 9:27 pm
by Vladimir_Taltos
Wonder how the D'Backs and Orioles are going to do this year?
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:09 pm
by Split T
I’m starting to think about KD to Dallas…someone was on the radio with Gambo and they brought them up…talked about Lively being the big piece coming back, which I’d love, but that does make it tricky salary wise.
Gafford/Washington/Marshall/Christie works salary wise I believe. Gets us out of the 2nd apron and gives us some actual size and defense. Plus you take whatever picks you can get. Christie might actually be an ideal backcourt partner for Book.
If you can get Lively instead of Gafford, even better. Probably has to be 5 for 1 in that case though.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 11:48 am
by Mori Chu
I appreciate the creative thinking and trade ideas. I think I would be bummed out if that's all we got for KD, but maybe if we get a couple 1sts in there it becomes appealing.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:24 pm
by In2ition
Split T wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:09 pm
I’m starting to think about KD to Dallas…someone was on the radio with Gambo and they brought them up…talked about Lively being the big piece coming back, which I’d love, but that does make it tricky salary wise.
Gafford/Washington/Marshall/Christie works salary wise I believe. Gets us out of the 2nd apron and gives us some actual size and defense. Plus you take whatever picks you can get. Christie might actually be an ideal backcourt partner for Book.
If you can get Lively instead of Gafford, even better. Probably has to be 5 for 1 in that case though.
The ideal backcourt partner for Book is a big PG that can push the ball, pass, rebound, defend and shoot.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:49 pm
by TOO
In2ition wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:24 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:09 pm
I’m starting to think about KD to Dallas…someone was on the radio with Gambo and they brought them up…talked about Lively being the big piece coming back, which I’d love, but that does make it tricky salary wise.
Gafford/Washington/Marshall/Christie works salary wise I believe. Gets us out of the 2nd apron and gives us some actual size and defense. Plus you take whatever picks you can get. Christie might actually be an ideal backcourt partner for Book.
If you can get Lively instead of Gafford, even better. Probably has to be 5 for 1 in that case though.
The ideal backcourt partner for Book is a big PG that can push the ball, pass, rebound, defend and shoot.
How many of those guys exist in NBA history?
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:55 pm
by The Bobster
TOO wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:49 pm
In2ition wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:24 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:09 pm
I’m starting to think about KD to Dallas…someone was on the radio with Gambo and they brought them up…talked about Lively being the big piece coming back, which I’d love, but that does make it tricky salary wise.
Gafford/Washington/Marshall/Christie works salary wise I believe. Gets us out of the 2nd apron and gives us some actual size and defense. Plus you take whatever picks you can get. Christie might actually be an ideal backcourt partner for Book.
If you can get Lively instead of Gafford, even better. Probably has to be 5 for 1 in that case though.
The ideal backcourt partner for Book is a big PG that can push the ball, pass, rebound, defend and shoot.
How many of those guys exist in NBA history?
Oscar Robertson, Walt Frazier, Gary Payton, and....... that's about it.
Re: Off-season Plans
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:00 pm
by In2ition
TOO wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:49 pm
In2ition wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:24 pm
Split T wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:09 pm
I’m starting to think about KD to Dallas…someone was on the radio with Gambo and they brought them up…talked about Lively being the big piece coming back, which I’d love, but that does make it tricky salary wise.
Gafford/Washington/Marshall/Christie works salary wise I believe. Gets us out of the 2nd apron and gives us some actual size and defense. Plus you take whatever picks you can get. Christie might actually be an ideal backcourt partner for Book.
If you can get Lively instead of Gafford, even better. Probably has to be 5 for 1 in that case though.
The ideal backcourt partner for Book is a big PG that can push the ball, pass, rebound, defend and shoot.
How many of those guys exist in NBA history?
I would have said that Lonzo would have been one, except for his injuries. Cade Cunningham would be one, and if Simmons could shoot, he would be another in the NBA today. If Luka could defend, he would be another.