The Mike Budenholzer Problem

[Superbone]

Is he a problem? Shel tried to tell us for months that he is and it took me until now to agree...I think. I mean, we have lots of issues, probably the biggest being how the team is put together. However, we haven't seen any improvements in turnovers, defense, and rebounding. Bud is definitely not getting through to these guys. Either that or they are incapable of improving in the key areas mentioned above. I have tried to be patient with Bud, I really have.

Do we jettison yet another 1st year Suns coach after the season? These retreads are not working. Both having championships under their belts too. I think I'm now in the young up and comer coach camp. Somebody that can get a team to listen and play good defense and not make the same mistakes game after game. Somebody like a Mark Daigneault, Taylor Jenkins, or Kenny Atkinson.

Thoughts?

[specialsauce]

The players are the problem. The front office is the problem.

I'm not sure firing the coach again changes anything. The roster needs a total reset

[LazarusLong]

They lost their best coach when they traded Chris Paul.
For all his faults, he usually kept that team focused.
There are no real Alpha personalities on this team.

[O_Gardino]

IMO if the players can't play for Monty, Frank, or Mike, then the problem is the players.

I think if Ishbia fires a third coach in his third summer, he sets a precedent with prospective coaches who won't want to come here. It would also give the players a convenient out and reinforce their lazy play. At some point the team has to back the coach.

[Carno]

I don't think Bud is the problem. These same problems existed last season with Vogel. The problem is team construction, though I don't blame the front office for it. It was a legitimate gamble, and they lost. How they get out of this mess is the real test. I think Jones is up to it (with expectations commensurate with the team's situation).

[TOO]

It's a roster problem, no coach is getting these losers to play hard on both ends.

[ShelC]

It's a combo of the roster and coach. We know the roster is very flawed and unbalanced but it's still telling the team was better in certain areas last year under Vogel. But I don't think the players took Vogel seriously. It was personality more than anything. This year, Bud's just too laid back and his supposed strength - offense - still isn't good enough to cover the defensive dropoff. Both guys were afraid to challenge the players, which is what you get with a top heavy "star" laden team. Monty at least used to call the team out if they didn't perform up to a certain standard. He would be angry in press conferences. Vogel and Bud have been too scared to do that. You don't want to embarrass anyone, but there's gotta be accountability.

I think they need to see where things shake out this summer. If you trade KD for young guys and picks - preferably that Houston package - I think you can keep Bud on and hopefully he can get thru to the new players. I still don't like his rotations and think he's too laid back but I'd give him a shot with a younger team if he's willing to actually develop young guys and give them minutes.

If Beal and/or KD are on the roster after the summer, it's tough to keep Bud. They need a strong leader/personality. I don't think KD is a bad guy but you need a coach he responds to and teammates he respects enough to do the little things. I don't know if there's a coach out there who will challenge him without losing him and possibly the team. That might be on of the reasons why he didn't want to go back to GS. Regardless, that coach needs the backing of the front office to do what's necessary. Is a guy like Jeff Van Gundy up for it? Do they need a tough, former player they can relate to who they also can respect?

I do think we made too much of the "championship" resume with the hirings. The next guy doesn't need a title on his resume. He needs the right personality and vision for how the team should play which gives us an identity. But it's also on the front office to get him the players he needs to make it happen.

[Cap]

The players are the problem. The front office is the problem.

I'm not sure firing the coach again changes anything. The roster needs a total reset

We’ve been firing coaches like nobody’s business for a decade. It hasn’t helped.

[Mori Chu]

Vogel and Bud were great coaches for teams that also had leaders on the floor (Lebron and Giannis) who busted their ass and held their teammates accountable. They aren't great fits to light a fire under "unbothered" star players like KD and Booker.

But I think the right answer to that is to trade KD, not fire Bud. I don't think any coach could get a Booker-and-KD core to a title. It's too flawed to have these two guys as your two best and highest paid players. Trade KD, bring in guys who bust their asses, and who listen. Bud should be fine in that case.

[Split T]

He might be a problem, but the roster is a bigger problem. Figure that out first

[Superbone]

IMO if the players can't play for Monty, Frank, or Mike, then the problem is the players.

I think if Ishbia fires a third coach in his third summer, he sets a precedent with prospective coaches who won't want to come here. It would also give the players a convenient out and reinforce their lazy play. At some point the team has to back the coach.

I'm fine with giving him a revamped roster and seeing what he can do with it. You're right, three coaches couldn't coach this group. So maybe it's the group. It's definitely the group. Just a little puzzled why nothing ever changes and they make the same mistakes every game.

[Superbone]

The players are the problem. The front office is the problem.

I'm not sure firing the coach again changes anything. The roster needs a total reset

We’ve been firing coaches like nobody’s business for a decade. It hasn’t helped.

I thought we had our John MacLeod/Cotton Fitzsimmons with Monty Willams... sigh.

[TOO]

IMO if the players can't play for Monty, Frank, or Mike, then the problem is the players.

I think if Ishbia fires a third coach in his third summer, he sets a precedent with prospective coaches who won't want to come here. It would also give the players a convenient out and reinforce their lazy play. At some point the team has to back the coach.

I'm fine with giving him a revamped roster and seeing what he can do with it. You're right, three coaches couldn't coach this group. So maybe it's the group. It's definitely the group. Just a little puzzled why nothing ever changes and they make the same mistakes every game.

Because the players are what they are. Booker and KD are obviously talented but very limited in some aspects that do not play well either each other and both need good 3D wings and PG play to support them.

[Superbone]

IMO if the players can't play for Monty, Frank, or Mike, then the problem is the players.

I think if Ishbia fires a third coach in his third summer, he sets a precedent with prospective coaches who won't want to come here. It would also give the players a convenient out and reinforce their lazy play. At some point the team has to back the coach.

I'm fine with giving him a revamped roster and seeing what he can do with it. You're right, three coaches couldn't coach this group. So maybe it's the group. It's definitely the group. Just a little puzzled why nothing ever changes and they make the same mistakes every game.

Because the players are what they are. Booker and KD are obviously talented but very limited in some aspects that do not play well either each other and both need good 3D wings and PG play to support them.

Could explain Bud's thinning hair.

[The Bobster]

It's going to take some significant player personnel turnover to fix this team, and I'm not sure they have the assets to assemble a contender.

I'm all for backing the truck up, adding whatever young players and draft picks they can get and taking a step backwards in order to have some hope for the future.

You get what you can for Durant, Booker, Allen and O'Neale. If Beal is tradeable without attaching assets to him, you do that too. Otherwise he becomes an expiring contract in 2026-27.

[Cap]

It's going to take some significant player personnel turnover to fix this team, and I'm not sure they have the assets to assemble a contender.

I’m quite sure they don’t. Cotton and Jerry couldn’t salvage this mess, forget about James and Mat.

[The Bobster]

It's going to take some significant player personnel turnover to fix this team, and I'm not sure they have the assets to assemble a contender.

I’m quite sure they don’t. Cotton and Jerry couldn’t salvage this mess, forget about James and Mat.

Yes, Jerry and Cotton were much better at it, but they also didn't have to deal with a system with the punitive penalties there are now for overspending.

The overpay on Beal was a killer. Even if none of the pick swaps take place, Paul is still probably a better fit, he's paid less and he doesn't have a NTC. Constantly whiffing on high draft choices has finally caught up with them too - there's only so many times you can afford to pick a player like Bender, Chriss, Jackson, Len, Ayton or Stix when there are better players available (a nice going away gift from McDonough and Sarver). Throw in a coach who alienates players followed by two who seem over-matched by the job of squeezing some leadership out of Durant and Booker, and there we go.

We're currently stuck with a team with no leadership, no defense, no rebounding, no execution, no killer instinct, and above all else, no heart.

[Cap]

It's going to take some significant player personnel turnover to fix this team, and I'm not sure they have the assets to assemble a contender.

I’m quite sure they don’t. Cotton and Jerry couldn’t salvage this mess, forget about James and Mat.

Yes, Jerry and Cotton were much better at it, but they also didn't have to deal with a system with the punitive penalties there are now for overspending.

It’s not like those penalties blindsided us.

[Charlie Smithy!]

It's going to take some significant player personnel turnover to fix this team, and I'm not sure they have the assets to assemble a contender.

I’m quite sure they don’t. Cotton and Jerry couldn’t salvage this mess, forget about James and Mat.

Yes, Jerry and Cotton were much better at it, but they also didn't have to deal with a system with the punitive penalties there are now for overspending.

The overpay on Beal was a killer. Even if none of the pick swaps take place, Paul is still probably a better fit, he's paid less and he doesn't have a NTC. Constantly whiffing on high draft choices has finally caught up with them too - there's only so many times you can afford to pick a player like Bender, Chriss, Jackson, Len, Ayton or Stix when there are better players available (a nice going away gift from McDonough and Sarver). Throw in a coach who alienates players followed by two who seem over-matched by the job of squeezing some leadership out of Durant and Booker, and there we go.

We're currently stuck with a team with no leadership, no defense, no rebounding, no execution, no killer instinct, and above all else, no heart.

But, other than that...

[JJ Slim]

It's going to take some significant player personnel turnover to fix this team, and I'm not sure they have the assets to assemble a contender.

I’m quite sure they don’t. Cotton and Jerry couldn’t salvage this mess, forget about James and Mat.

Yes, Jerry and Cotton were much better at it, but they also didn't have to deal with a system with the punitive penalties there are now for overspending.

The overpay on Beal was a killer. Even if none of the pick swaps take place, Paul is still probably a better fit, he's paid less and he doesn't have a NTC. Constantly whiffing on high draft choices has finally caught up with them too - there's only so many times you can afford to pick a player like Bender, Chriss, Jackson, Len, Ayton or Stix when there are better players available (a nice going away gift from McDonough and Sarver). Throw in a coach who alienates players followed by two who seem over-matched by the job of squeezing some leadership out of Durant and Booker, and there we go.

We're currently stuck with a team with no leadership, no defense, no rebounding, no execution, no killer instinct, and above all else, no heart.

But, other than that...

You mean we have a chance?