NBA Playoffs 2020

[In2ition]

The argument is as simple as this: Michael Jordan absolutely never choked in his career. Once he got to the point where he'd been in the league enough years, and had a decent team around him, he started winning titles, and then he never stopped. 6 in a row. Every time he went into the playoffs with a good team, he won the title. He never ever got close but then choked under pressure or had a crappy game to lose his shot at the Finals. Lebron is a more impressive physical specimen and has had a better longevity to his career, but he's been to 9 Finals and choked in 6 of them. That's absolutely disqualifying if you're talking about who is the GOAT. MJ, undefeated, an absolute assassin. You simply were not going to beat him. Lebron, very good, repeatedly blew it in the Finals and playoffs. In any given series you absolutely could beat him. Not the greatest ever.

Well, Jordan also played for arguably the best coach ever. He also never won without Pippen.

[Mori Chu]

Lebron did not choke 6 times. He had one bad series against Dallas. Every other time he lost he was playing a better team. Jordan never lost in the finals because he never played a team better than him in the finals. Of course Jordan is the main reason his team was always better, but you can’t just take out all variables and look strictly at finals records. By that measure Bill Russell is the GOAT by a long shot.

It's kind of backwards logic to say that Jordan's teams won because they were better and therefore it isn't very impressive that Jordan always won. He didn't face chopped liver in the Finals or in the Eastern playoffs along the way. Teams like the '92 Blazers, early '90s Knicks, '93 Suns, '96 Sonics, '97-98 Jazz, '98 Pacers, etc. were stiff competition. This wasn't some watered-down George Mikan league in the '50s when the players were all fat old white guys.

You can argue that some of Lebron's opponents were "better" than him, but that's all the more reason to say he isn't the GOAT. If he were the GOAT, his team would be the better team, so long as he had a solid supporting cast. He had a great supporting cast in many of the Finals he lost, and yet, he lost. Not the GOAT.

[BookTheGoat]

He had a great supporting cast in 2011 and 2017. 2014 Wade was falling apart already. 2018 Kyrie was gone. I think your part time GSW fandom causes some bias.

[Split T]

Lebron did not choke 6 times. He had one bad series against Dallas. Every other time he lost he was playing a better team. Jordan never lost in the finals because he never played a team better than him in the finals. Of course Jordan is the main reason his team was always better, but you can’t just take out all variables and look strictly at finals records. By that measure Bill Russell is the GOAT by a long shot.

It's kind of backwards logic to say that Jordan's teams won because they were better and therefore it isn't very impressive that Jordan always won. He didn't face chopped liver in the Finals or in the Eastern playoffs along the way. Teams like the '92 Blazers, early '90s Knicks, '93 Suns, '96 Sonics, '97-98 Jazz, '98 Pacers, etc. were stiff competition. This wasn't some watered-down George Mikan league in the '50s when the players were all fat old white guys.

You can argue that some of Lebron's opponents were "better" than him, but that's all the more reason to say he isn't the GOAT. If he were the GOAT, his team would be the better team, so long as he had a solid supporting cast. He had a great supporting cast in many of the Finals he lost, and yet, he lost. Not the GOAT.

I did say that the main reason Jordan’s teams were better was because him. But my point had less to do with Jordan’s teams and more to do with his opponents.

Who was better, the ‘93 Suns or the ‘14 Spurs? The Curry warriors or the late 90’s Jazz? The ‘07 Spurs or the ‘92 Blazers?

Statistics would say that those teams Lebron lost to in the finals were much better than the teams Jordan beat. How is that a fair comparison? Do you think Jordan would have won 6 titles if he played the Warriors 4 times and the ‘14 Spurs and ‘07 Spurs?

I think there are very good arguments for Jordan being the GOAT. I think 6-0 vs 3-6, soon to be 4-6, is just a weak one.

[Superbone]

And on this subject, my point wasn’t to say Lebron was better. It was simply to say he faced better competition. I don’t think that’s even a question.

It is very much so. Just because you pull out a single stat that supports your theory doesn't make it true. There is no way to really know. These were different eras with different rules.

[Superbone]

Let's also not forget that Jordan stayed on one team to get his 6 rings. Lebron has hopped from team to team forming super teams to make it work for him. Lebron's a great player but he's not in the same stratosphere when it comes to competitiveness as Jordan.

Yep.

[Superbone]

I'll go to my grave believing that the 1993 Suns were better than the Bulls - at least in overall talent in the aggregate as far as the rosters.

...that 1-2 punch of Jordan and Pippen, however...

Me too. It was Barkley that was the MVP that year. Not Jordan.

[Split T]

And on this subject, my point wasn’t to say Lebron was better. It was simply to say he faced better competition. I don’t think that’s even a question.

It is very much so. Just because you pull out a single stat that supports your theory doesn't make it true. There is no way to really know. These were different eras with different rules.

Well I’ll ask again, who did Jordan face that was as good as the Curry Warriors?

[Mori Chu]

Well I’ll ask again, who did Jordan face that was as good as the Curry Warriors?

I'll ask back, how are you the Greatest of All Time if your opponents are considered way better than your team? If Lebron couldn't field a team that was better than those Warriors and whoop them, how is he in discussion for the GOAT? If he were truly the greatest ever, Lebron plus an all-star PG and PF and a strong supporting cast, as they had, would defeat even a mighty opponent such as the Warriors. IF he were the GOAT, that is. Which he is not.

[Split T]

Well I’ll ask again, who did Jordan face that was as good as the Curry Warriors?

I'll ask back, how are you the Greatest of All Time if your opponents are considered way better than your team? If Lebron couldn't field a team that was better than those Warriors and whoop them, how is he in discussion for the GOAT? If he were truly the greatest ever, Lebron plus an all-star PG and PF and a strong supporting cast, as they had, would defeat even a mighty opponent such as the Warriors. IF he were the GOAT, that is. Which he is not.

How did Jordan get swept by Bird and the Celtics? Why did it take Jordan 4 tries to finally beat Isiah and the Pistons?

Basketball is a team sport. And I’ve never said Jordan isn’t the GOAT. Your arguments are just the wrong ones.

Again, by your standards, Bill Russell is the GOAT, not Jordan anyways.

[Superbone]

And on this subject, my point wasn’t to say Lebron was better. It was simply to say he faced better competition. I don’t think that’s even a question.

It is very much so. Just because you pull out a single stat that supports your theory doesn't make it true. There is no way to really know. These were different eras with different rules.

Well I’ll ask again, who did Jordan face that was as good as the Curry Warriors?

Probably all of them if they played with the rules of the time. Hard to say. That's my point.

[BookTheGoat]

And on this subject, my point wasn’t to say Lebron was better. It was simply to say he faced better competition. I don’t think that’s even a question.

It is very much so. Just because you pull out a single stat that supports your theory doesn't make it true. There is no way to really know. These were different eras with different rules.

Well I’ll ask again, who did Jordan face that was as good as the Curry Warriors?

Probably all of them if they played with the rules of the time. Hard to say. That's my point.

Relative to their era.....none of them.

[Split T]

And on this subject, my point wasn’t to say Lebron was better. It was simply to say he faced better competition. I don’t think that’s even a question.

It is very much so. Just because you pull out a single stat that supports your theory doesn't make it true. There is no way to really know. These were different eras with different rules.

Well I’ll ask again, who did Jordan face that was as good as the Curry Warriors?

Probably all of them if they played with the rules of the time. Hard to say. That's my point.

I don’t think I understand what you mean by that. That the warriors wouldn’t be as good with 90’s rules?

I’m not sure that matters too much. They were historic with the rules they played under, which is the rules Lebron faced them under.

[Split T]

Unreal performance by Jimmy tonight to get the win for the Heat. AD getting in foul trouble and having a poor game helped. Hopefully Miami can get Bam and Dragic back and make this a series.

[Drewsprocket]

Jordan had a more stable situation with his teams and faced lesser competition than Lebron.

I was with you every step until you said that. I heard an audible record scratch. Uh, yeah. You weren't around at that time and it shows.

Please tell me what team Jordan played that was as good as the Warriors?

I had this discussion with a friend not too long ago. Take the top teams Jordan and Lebron faced in the playoffs as ranked by SRS:

1. ‘17 Warriors
2. ‘16 Warriors
3. ‘15 Warriors
4. ‘08 Celtics
5. ‘86 Celtics
6. ‘07 Spurs
7. ‘14 Spurs
8. ‘97 Jazz
9. ‘96 Sonics
10. ‘18 Raptors

Lebron played the 4 toughest, 6 of the 7 toughest and 7 of 10.

Nice take. But these 90s teams were tough as nails and playing under different rules that would never enable Steph to hang 30 let alone 40 in a playoff game every night. Jazz, Sonics, Lakers would be rough on Warriors. The Lakers were hit by injury btw in 91. Anyhoo, the biggest stat here is that Jordan’s team occupies 4/10 on your SRS list top 10 wise. Jordan was never part of any big 3. It was him and Pippen with a veterans, and a starting PF (Grant/Rodman).
There’s Jordan and then there’s Kobe and Lebron.
Ask yourself who had a better career, Kobe or Lebron.

I don’t want to get into a debate about who could do what in other eras, that’s not really my point. Simply speaking, the teams Lebron faced in the playoffs fared better against the opponents of their day than the teams Jordan faced in the playoffs fared against the opponents of their day.

And on this subject, my point wasn’t to say Lebron was better. It was simply to say he faced better competition. I don’t think that’s even a question. I don’t have a problem with someone who thinks Jordan is the GOAT, by some interpretations I’d agree that he is.

And Lebron vs Kobe isn’t even a question. It’s Lebron by a mile.

Sorry I misread you. That is a great debate that begs the question whether those teams are tougher. You make a well backed up valid point that Lebron faced tougher competition. Spurs and Warriors were giants to run into. Lebron’s Cavs beating the Warriors was huge. But in a qualitative review, I would add that the West Coast in the 90s were super tough and competitive; that nobody came close to beating the Bulls was a testament to how dominant Jordan was and well coached they were. He took down the Lakers, Blazers, Suns, Jazz, and Sonics who to my mind who could be champs playing in today’s league.
The Spurs defeat I think heralds as Lebron’s biggest take down. And I think the Spurs are the only team that I think could have beaten Jordan’s Bulls.

[Superbone]

Yes, great win by the Heat tonight. I hope they can win game 4 and make it a series.

[Mori Chu]

Really happy the Heat took Game 3. I want a long and fiesty series. Really gutsy win without Bam and Goran. Jimmy was on another level.

[O_Gardino]

That was a game to remember for Butler.

[O_Gardino]

And holy shit, Danny Green shoots so badly in the playoffs.

[Split T]

Green has been awful