Offseason Review : Is Jeff Hornacek a Bad Influence / Coach?

[Indy]

I don't think we are refusing to trade him. We probably have just gotten crappy trade offers and don't want to just give the guy away. The FO is holding out hope that some team will step up with a better offer, so they're leaking obviously false rumors (through their media puppets like Gambo) saying that we are just going to keep Kieff, hoping it will drive up his price. It's a standard tactic, and we aren't doing it very well in this case because it's so blatant and obvious.

Exactly.

[JCSunsfan]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/n ... /71318670/

a Morris early arrival is about as likely as a fulfillment of his trade wish.

The Suns need and want Morris. They would not stand much of a chance to replace him by trade. They would have no chance to replace him by free agency. They do not have an adequate existing roster option.

I lose faith in this front office by the minute that Markieff Morris is still on the roster. I'm baffled by the fact that it appears we are refusing to trade him. I understand we have him on a good salary and it'd leave a huge weakness at the 4 but can we seriously take another hit to our chemistry this year? Basketball is a team sport where team chemistry is huge, especially when you consider how our offense is constructed with ball movement.

Its just the oppositive for me. My faith in this team increases because I see them not over reacting or being manipulated by a player. This team has vets on it now, with a locker room presence. Kieff is not the "premiere player" and he knows it. They haven't traded him, but they have castrated him.

I don't mind if they trade him, but I don't mind if they keep him and make him play either.

[OE32]

I think it's worth pointing out that Keef has evidently decided not to take the lowest road. It would appear that someone in Keef's camp has tried to "undo" that Philly article. Keef hasn't made any more noise on the subject. My bet is that he comes to camp demure but not destructive. And my guess is that the org and Keef have had some communications through back channels to make sure that the relationship is not totally destructive.

Who knows if he stays past the trade deadline, but I think he makes it at least that far with us.

[virtual9mm]

Hmmm...has Kieff changed agents as well? Very strange that his brother would ditch the same agent that Kieff is apparently keeping. Anything to read between the lines?

[OE32]

Hmmm...has Kieff changed agents as well? Very strange that his brother would ditch the same agent that Kieff is apparently keeping. Anything to read between the lines?

I was thinking about this as well. Is it possible that the agent communicated to the brothers that Markieff is underpaid in part because of the contract Marcus got? Is it possible that he talked to teams around the league, which communicated that the Morris brothers' value is low in part because of their on- and off-court actions last year, which communications he shared with the brothers? I imagine that Marcus would feel much more slighted by these truths than Markieff - after all, it appears that Marcus was the one actively beating someone up in the assault case, was the one who screamed at Coach Hornacek, and... was Markieff's hanger-on last year. After all, we were really paying $12 million to keep Keef here and to keep him happy and that, while we like Marcus's game, he's not why we made the offer. I'm sure we've told the agent as much. I'm sure that's the perception around the league. I expect the truth would piss Marcus off much more than Markieff. I also wonder if Markieff might be a bit mad at his brother for dragging him down a bit.

[Indy]

Marcus was the one publicly saying that Marcus was overpaid in the deal. I think he said something when they signed the contract that his cut should have been much less.

[sunshoopjunky]

Would anyone else entertain this trade?
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=p9w92w4

Bulls: Get Markieff Morris and Archie Goodwin
Suns: Get Bobby Portis and Taj Gibson and Kings 1st round pick top 10 protected 2016, then top 10 protected 2017 else Bulls 2017 1st round pick.

Why the Bulls do it:
Bulls have been shopping Gibson and don't have any takers as he has got two years left on his four-year, $33 million deal but is expected to miss at least three more months after undergoing off season ankle surgery.

Markieff is durable and played 82 games last season. He is an upgrade on offense over Taj and just about the same rebounding. He is younger and locked into a brand new reasonable contract. The Bulls are moving more toward an offensive focus Markeiff helps them with that. Markieff has All Star Potential in the East at PF before he contract is up in 4 years.

Archie Goodwin can play as a combo guard or even swing man. He could both back up or play beside Rose as a scoring guard. He is an offensive minded player that can learn from Rose and he is young and affordable locked in for the next 2 years.

Both these players would help now but also solidify the future.

Why the Suns do it:
Bobby Portis has the ability to shoot the 3, he is a good high post passer, he has a nose for the ball, and the ability to work from the mid range. He can learn under Tyson Chandler as well as Taj Gibson. He is young and under a good contract.

Taj Gibson and Tyson Chandler could help build a great culture for the Suns. Gibson could use the Suns training staff. His contract is affordable and in 2 years could be readdressed.

Another 1st round pick as an asset.

I would also be open to no pick but then would not want to include Goodwin and works as well on the trade checker.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ow9noo9
I just felt like with Portis's Summer league play it may not be something that would work for the Bulls with out Goodwin.

Let me know what you think.

[OE32]

Would anyone else entertain this trade?
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=p9w92w4

Bulls: Get Markieff Morris and Archie Goodwin
Suns: Get Bobby Portis and Taj Gibson and Kings 1st round pick top 10 protected 2016, then top 10 protected 2017 else Bulls 2017 1st round pick.

Frankly, I think that would be good for both teams. Well done.

[Mori Chu]

I would do Markieff for Taj Gibson, simply because Taj seems like a hard-working high character guy who would fit in. I don't know if he's the kind of player we want at the starting 4, but I don't think we will get 100 cents on the dollar for Markieff at this point. Taj is probably about as good as we're going to get for him now.

[OE32]

I think Markieff >>> Gibson. Which is why I would require the other pieces to do the deal.

[sunshoopjunky]

Plus Taj is out for 3 months due to the ankle surgery. For me its about how to I get Portis. Taj is cap filler and locker room leadership at the beginning of the season with the hope that Portis could get enough time to develop while he was out. Archie leaving would then open up the time for Booker. When we drafted Amare I new he would have action at the rookie of the year. Not because he was a stud but because he was a PF and Gugliotta could not stay on the court. So sure enough Gugliotta went down and Amare got minutes.

Here is an excerpt from http://espn.go.com/magazine/vol6no03stoudemire.html

"In just over two months, Stoudemire has gone from anomaly -- the only high school player taken in a draft dominated by foreign players -- to the talk of the NBA. A combination of power, quickness and hustle, he has helped turn the Suns into the league's hottest young team. Since replacing the injured Tom Gugliotta in the lineup on Nov. 23, Stoudemire has also created a pickle for coach Frank Johnson, who works for two of Amare's biggest fans, Phoenix owner Jerry Colangelo and GM Bryan Colangelo. "Anytime Amare's on the bench," Johnson says, "it's like Jerry and Bryan have a buzzer shocking my seat."

I think that with the right set of circumstances Portis can force his way into the starting spot and if not still has a chance to develop into at least as good a player as Markeif. I think his ceiling is Garnett. If Len can learn from Chandler and stay healthy he could be a Roy Hibbert type player. Tj Warren will be a Bernard King type Booker has a chance to be like Klay Thompson.

I know I am reaching here but does this sound bad if I add 4 years to each of their ages

Brandon Knight would be 27 at best Jason Terry
Devon Booker would be 22 at best Klay Thompson
Tj Warren would be 25 at best Bernard King
Portis would be a 24 and at best Kevin Garnett
Alex Len would be 26 and at best Roy Hibbert

That's a starting 5 that excites me. Then its build for the future try to get young backups that fill roles like 3 and D, Pass first point guard, enforcer big body, athletic scorer.

*Breathing heavy Ok Im done with my no way in hell rant but it is off season. lol

[Ring_Wanted]

I don't think Kieff>Gibson (let alone >>>), once you factor in defense and rebounding.

Kieff is obviously the better offensive player, but defensively there is no contest.

As for the glass, again the totals rebounds are misleading. These players sport a similar 6-ish per game, but Gibson offers better quality, which is no surprise when you consider his level of activity, jumping ability and above all the length (wingspan 7'4 vs 6'11, reach 9.1 vs 8'10). Watching Kieff you can't say he has a nose for the ball or bulk to block out and contribute in the way of a Robin Lopez.

Taj used to be merely a D+R role player but since 13-14 he has developed a midrange shot and that makes him a viable starter. Kieff is obviously starter level, just in a different way as a one on one weapon with more range. Both would make big candidates for 6MOTY award.

One could argue that Taj is a product of Thib's system, but then maybe Kieff only gets so many 1on1 looks because Phoenix lacks better players.

To me, picking between them depends on your specific needs, although health is a big factor now. On the other hand, so is character.



All that means that I probably don't make the swap if I am the Bulls, unless somehow I could make up for what I lose on D. Especially if it is tilted towards Phoenix and I have to add two (!) assets (although I know basically nothing about Portis), and above all when the relationship between Kieff and Phoenix looks fubare. The contract angle is certainly there but imo not enough to offset the other factors in this scenario. Archie Goodwin is not relevant enough either, in the same way Tony Snell wouldn't be from our perspective.

Needless to say, I hope I am wrong and Kieff actually holds this kind of value around the L (starter level + assets), but I also guess that if such was the case, a trade would have happened already.

Btw, I'd really like to get McDermott.

[OE32]

Taj is a better rebounder and better defender, sure, but he's not even on the same planet as Keef offensively. Two-way players are simply much more valuable, and Keef isn't a slouch defensively.

Comparing Portis to Amare and KG is kinda silly. One obvious difference is athleticism - the latter two were elite. Portis comes in below average in that respect. High motor guy with the right measurements and a streaky, funky J. No matter what you think of his ceiling, it's lower than Amare and KG. But I'd like having him, as well.

[Ring_Wanted]

If Kieff is labeled as two way player Gibson has to be too. The advantage one has on offense is given up on the other end and viceversa. In other words, I can't condone Kieff's shortcomings as rebounder and rim protector (granted, not the only aspect of defense) while punishing Gibson for his own limitations on O when he has demonstrably expanded his game over the last two seasons.

[Indy]

Yeah, I have a really hard time calling Keef a two-way player. Typically, when I hear "two-way player" I think of a guy that is nearly equal on both sides of the ball, and is above average in both. Keef isn't close to that on defense.

[sunshoopjunky]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. This is why I love this place. I agree with Indy on 2 way players, for me they are pretty rare.

As far as McDermott I think that would be a good pickup was well and would do this trade with no picks

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pju79tq

Just adding Tucker in for McDermott

I don't think that Portis is like Amare at all just with the ability to get time like Amare he could shine in much different ways. The Amare comparison was more to show rookies that get thrown to the wolves and get minutes seem to have better chances at being more elite players. That quote was just to show that a player that had less then 6 years experience playing basketball came in got minutes and ROY. Portis's game is nothing like Amare. Comparing their game would be silly. Sorry for the bad communication on my end on that.
As far as KG comparison I think its because of his intensity watching him play and his body type. They are both 6-11 when drafted Kg was 217 Portis was 231. He has along way to go to reach it and it probably is silly to compare a rookie with 0 games to an MVP that will be in the HOF. But I am telling you that if Portis can get the minutes and play within his game he can get ROY this year. I don't think that can happen in Chicago.

[Ring_Wanted]

I really doubt Chicago wants a Kieff-Gibson swap but Thibs is no longer there. Under Hoiberg I have no idea who could become available in lateral-ish moves (Gibson, Hinrich, Dunleavy) or what's the plan with the raw kids (McD, Portis, Snell).

Anyway I'd try to keep it simple. Assuming they do youth for vet:

PJ Tucker, Archie and up to Cleveland's 2016 pick (ideally just a real 2ndR or two) for McDermott, Portis, filler (Bairstow, Moore). They pay for a rotation player with the former lotto pick and swap the current mid1stR for two #25-30 chips. Numbers don't work otherwise.



I guess if I am Chicago I try to move that package for something better than PJ, but the amount of salary is an issue, as it's not that easy to find available 3D wings ready to perform around $6M. They can add Snell and make it roughly 8M for trade purposes, but then again, who is in the mood to part ways with a stablished player for those pieces?

Relevant vets from win now teams (Ariza, Jeff Green, Deng, even lower tier like Dudley or Brewer) probably wouldn't be attainable unless said team loved one of the prospects, whereas rebuilding franchises usually don't have such role players.

Denver could be a candidate, but Chandler and Gallo have just received new contracts/extensions and can't be moved. From Portland, Henderson or Aminu are not what Chicago needs, and Miller is done.

[OE32]

I think Keef is an above-average defender. Moves his feet extremely well for a 4, which really helps him guard the P&R. We discussed stats last year showing that he was actually a quality post defender, to the surprise of many. No, he's not a rim protector. But he's strong, fast, and smart. He's in the right place at the right time. All of this is borne out by DRPM - Keef is #23 in the entire league at 3.03. Taj is #154 with 0.39 - behind not only Noah, but Mirotic and Pau as well. I know these stats aren't conclusive and can be confounded by a myriad of factors, but they're not entirely BS, either.

Rim protection is cool and all, but you're right - it is just one aspect of defense. I maintain my position - Keef is a quality two-way player. Taj is not.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

[Ring_Wanted]

I am not Barkley or Byron Scott so I won't deem advanced stuff BS.

But I counter by pointing at FG% when guarded by a given player (all FGs, not just close to the rim).

Against Kieff people basically shoot their average, 46% vs 46.1% over 11FG per game.

Taj makes you shoot 5% worse, on 11 the same attempts. That puts him among the supposed elite big men defenders like Davis, Green, Bogut, Hibbert, Ibaka, Gobert or Noah.

I am inclined to believe that one of the most important factors is how tough is scoring on you, but I know defense is much more than that. Rotations, pick and roll, talking (Tyson Chandler)...

Moreover, I maintain that rebounding is a big part of defense.

There are many stats (DWS for instance puts Kieff above Taj too, but the gap is way narrower than DRPM, at 2.7 vs 2.1), and defensive impact is maybe the hardest thing to measure in basketball but when I watch the Suns I don't really see a defensive menace from Markieff. To be fair, he absolutely is not a lazy turnstile like Amare either.

So if you don't protect the rim, you don't make people miss shots and you don't rebound, I can appreciate effort but it's really tough for me to say that you are more than average. In other words, not a relevant plus but not a liability either.

[OE32]

I am not Barkley or Byron Scott so I won't deem advanced stuff BS.

But I counter by pointing at FG% when guarded by a given player (all FGs, not just close to the rim).

Against Kieff people basically shoot their average, 46% vs 46.1% over 11FG per game.

Taj makes you shoot 5% worse, on 11 the same attempts. That puts him among the supposed elite big men defenders like Davis, Green, Bogut, Hibbert, Ibaka, Gobert or Noah.

I am inclined to believe that one of the most important factors is how tough is scoring on you, but I know defense is much more than that. Rotations, pick and roll, talking (Tyson Chandler)...

Moreover, I maintain that rebounding is a big part of defense.

There are many stats (DWS for instance puts Kieff above Taj too, but the gap is way narrower than DRPM, at 2.7 vs 2.1), and defensive impact is maybe the hardest thing to measure in basketball but when I watch the Suns I don't really see a defensive menace from Markieff. To be fair, he absolutely is not a lazy turnstile like Amare either.

So if you don't protect the rim, you don't make people miss shots and you don't rebound, I can appreciate effort but it's really tough for me to say that you are more than average. In other words, not a relevant plus but not a liability either.

I think that's all legit. And I think I've been underrating Taj's offense. I know he's got a decent mid-range J. 50% from the field, 70% from the line isn't bad. So... yeah. I get your point. I stand corrected.