Suns 2022 Off-Season Thread

[SunsRIt]

…If only DA had Dirk’s step back or could KG’s tenacity or Hakeem’s dream shake or Duncan’s fundamentals or Shaq’s dominance in the paint or Amare’s hands diving in the paint or Dikembe’s shot blocking or AI’s crossover or Jordan’s turnaround…
We could do this all day.

Ayton is either a more athletic Ewing in a 90s offense or a top 5 center, defensive specialist, and efficient scorer who sucks in the defense into the paint during the regular season, when healthy AND dialed in.

More like a contact averse Ewing. Ewing averaged between 6-8 free throws a game in 13 of his first 14 years. And was at 5.8 the year he didn’t. Ayton hasn’t made it to 3 yet and he’s going backwards.

Ewing had two seasons where he shot more free throws than Ayton had in 4 years.

Ayton is the love child of Ewing and Marion, with a fluidity and bounciness that Ewing lacked, but lacking some of the pure power. Ewing didn't have DA's automatic jump hook, either. The only challenge is to get Ayton to take it 15 times a game.

Ewing also averaged 3.5 blocks and 1.5 steals in his 4th season. Ayton was at .7 and .7. I know blocks and steals are not a great measure of defense on their own, but that's a pretty significant difference.

You mean after his 3 years in college. So 7 years post high school. Ayton played one year in college. 5 years post high school.

[The Bobster]

Ewing didn't spend a lot of time switching out onto perimeter players.

He was mobile, but he didn't have to cover as much of the court.

[specialsauce]

11. Only trade Ayton if he says he insists on being traded. Otherwise, match the max offer he receives and continue with him. He has improved his offense every year. A hook and a deadly jumper out to 15 feet. Everybody says Kal is the best defender, but Ayton is the anchor of our defense. People get passed the perimeter defender and go the other way when they see Ayton at the rim. If you don’t want issues with him guarding the 3 then don’t switch. I didn’t see Kal even slow down Luka and he is supposed to be able to guard 1-4. That sure don’t happen against Dallas.

I hate to say it, but I think the Chris Paul window is closed. If you bring in somebody else or keep Ayton I don’t think Chris Paul is leading this team to a title. He has broken down in the playoffs the last 2 years.

Bingo. Which is why making ANY DA move because of anything to do with CP3 and winning now is just cementing disappointment now AND in the future.

[Shabazz]

…If only DA had Dirk’s step back or could KG’s tenacity or Hakeem’s dream shake or Duncan’s fundamentals or Shaq’s dominance in the paint or Amare’s hands diving in the paint or Dikembe’s shot blocking or AI’s crossover or Jordan’s turnaround…
We could do this all day.

Ayton is either a more athletic Ewing in a 90s offense or a top 5 center, defensive specialist, and efficient scorer who sucks in the defense into the paint during the regular season, when healthy AND dialed in.

More like a contact averse Ewing. Ewing averaged between 6-8 free throws a game in 13 of his first 14 years. And was at 5.8 the year he didn’t. Ayton hasn’t made it to 3 yet and he’s going backwards.

Ewing had two seasons where he shot more free throws than Ayton had in 4 years.

Ayton is the love child of Ewing and Marion, with a fluidity and bounciness that Ewing lacked, but lacking some of the pure power. Ewing didn't have DA's automatic jump hook, either. The only challenge is to get Ayton to take it 15 times a game.

Ewing also averaged 3.5 blocks and 1.5 steals in his 4th season. Ayton was at .7 and .7. I know blocks and steals are not a great measure of defense on their own, but that's a pretty significant difference.

You mean after his 3 years in college. So 7 years post high school. Ayton played one year in college. 5 years post high school.

In Ewing's age-23 rookie season he averaged 2.1 and 1.1. That's compared to Ayton's .7 and .7. Ewing then increased his blocks/game for 4 straight years.

My post was more to discredit the Ewing-Ayton comparison than to take a shot at Ayton. I think they're similar in that they both like to operate from the mid-range, but Ewing was way more aggressive as a player.

[Superbone]

11. Only trade Ayton if he says he insists on being traded. Otherwise, match the max offer he receives and continue with him. He has improved his offense every year. A hook and a deadly jumper out to 15 feet. Everybody says Kal is the best defender, but Ayton is the anchor of our defense. People get passed the perimeter defender and go the other way when they see Ayton at the rim. If you don’t want issues with him guarding the 3 then don’t switch. I didn’t see Kal even slow down Luka and he is supposed to be able to guard 1-4. That sure don’t happen against Dallas.

I hate to say it, but I think the Chris Paul window is closed. If you bring in somebody else or keep Ayton I don’t think Chris Paul is leading this team to a title. He has broken down in the playoffs the last 2 years.

You went the wrong way, in your scenario it’d be more like a 0 or 1

I thought we saved 0 for Jeremy. In fact, it shouldn't be a number, just his name.

[Superbone]

Ya I understand that mindset and I don’t think it’s wrong…certainly it might be the best course of action. Maybe I’m just too intrigued by change. We just got beat so badly that it feels like we can’t just run it back.

I really want to know what happened leading up to game 7 with Dallas. It was like none of the players(or coach) liked each other. They scored 27 points in the first half of an elimination game! Something happened. I wonder if we will ever know the truth.

It's the weirdest thing I've ever experienced as a Suns fan. I sure hope we do one day. It doesn't give me a lot of confidence going into next season. That's for sure.

[Indy]

KD, KAT, and Siakam would all accomplish that

I don’t love KAT. I’d take any of them. Contracts wouldn’t work in a straight S&T. Would have to get creative

I've said all those but you just ignore them.

[Indy]

Ya I understand that mindset and I don’t think it’s wrong…certainly it might be the best course of action. Maybe I’m just too intrigued by change. We just got beat so badly that it feels like we can’t just run it back.

I really want to know what happened leading up to game 7 with Dallas. It was like none of the players(or coach) liked each other. They scored 27 points in the first half of an elimination game! Something happened. I wonder if we will ever know the truth.

It's the weirdest thing I've ever experienced as a Suns fan. I sure hope we do one day. It doesn't give me a lot of confidence going into next season. That's for sure.

Or maybe the rumors are true.

[AmareIsGod]

What are the rumors? I'm behind on this thread.

[Split T]

I'm probably a 3. A 7 is a pretty bad take if you ask me Split. If you reverse you're logic, on a scale of 1 to 10 in how you view his skills as a center, you're basically saying he's a 3.

No I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying I’m a 7 on how strongly I want to trade him. I’m not gonna take a garbage offer, but if Ayton is a quarter and is threatening to sign an offer sheet, I’m willing to take two dimes and a nickel for him. I don’t need to get a quarter in return or trade him up with other pieces for a dollar. I’d certainly try to get those, but if that’s not an option I don’t have a lot of faith in bringing him back and it working out at this point.

[Split T]

What are the rumors? I'm behind on this thread.

That Paul and Monty had a sort of falling out. Or the rumor that Paul was playing hurt. If the former is true it probably had to do with how to handle the latter.

[specialsauce]

KD, KAT, and Siakam would all accomplish that

I don’t love KAT. I’d take any of them. Contracts wouldn’t work in a straight S&T. Would have to get creative

I've said all those but you just ignore them.

So what would you do if we can’t get someone at that level? You’d rather get Poettl and a draft pick than max Ayton?

[specialsauce]

I'm probably a 3. A 7 is a pretty bad take if you ask me Split. If you reverse you're logic, on a scale of 1 to 10 in how you view his skills as a center, you're basically saying he's a 3.

No I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying I’m a 7 on how strongly I want to trade him. I’m not gonna take a garbage offer, but if Ayton is a quarter and is threatening to sign an offer sheet, I’m willing to take two dimes and a nickel for him. I don’t need to get a quarter in return or trade him up with other pieces for a dollar. I’d certainly try to get those, but if that’s not an option I don’t have a lot of faith in bringing him back and it working out at this point.

Two dimes and a nickel = Warrick, Turkoglu, Childress

Two dimes and a nickel = Chucky Atkins, Horry, Cassell

[Split T]

I'm probably a 3. A 7 is a pretty bad take if you ask me Split. If you reverse you're logic, on a scale of 1 to 10 in how you view his skills as a center, you're basically saying he's a 3.

No I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying I’m a 7 on how strongly I want to trade him. I’m not gonna take a garbage offer, but if Ayton is a quarter and is threatening to sign an offer sheet, I’m willing to take two dimes and a nickel for him. I don’t need to get a quarter in return or trade him up with other pieces for a dollar. I’d certainly try to get those, but if that’s not an option I don’t have a lot of faith in bringing him back and it working out at this point.

Two dimes and a nickel = Warrick, Turkoglu, Childress

Two dimes and a nickel = Chucky Atkins, Horry, Cassell

Nah, the first one is definitely a nickel and two pennies. Warrick and Childress were not good assets and turkoglu was getting old.

Your next one is more accurate, though I’d say Cassel is actually a quarter. Just not for us and we didn’t keep him around. Horry won 5 titles after his stint with us and was a very valuable role player. Just again not for us.

You also have to factor in a couple other things:

1. Amare was not traded for that pu pu platter so it’s not a fair comparison anyways.

2. Barkley asked to be traded, no? And he was pretty much at the end of his usefulness. He was 33 and not the same player anymore. It’d be more like trading Harden now.

3. Also Cassel was later packaged in a trade for Jason Kidd. So it was really like Barkley and Finley got you Horry and Kidd. So we ended up with the best player. Suns could very well do that again.

So comparing to what I’d accept in an Ayton trade, the Amare pu pu platter is not close, but the Barkley package is probably. A 26 year old future all-nba pg, a championship level role player and two other role player/contracts. It might be a touch low as I don’t recall how Cassel was perceived at the time as he broke out later.

But comparing to Poeltl, Vassel, and #9

Vassell is my favorite piece there. He’s basically a 21 year old Mikal clone. Sign me up for that please. I think he’s actually a better shooter than Mikal, though a touch smaller I believe. He’s probably more like a dime/nickel combo and 2 years from now we might think he was worth trading for Ayton by himself.

Poeltl is Poeltl, he’s a dime. Not going to surprise us with any new skills. Maybe CP3 gets him better looks than he’s used to, but he’s not the athlete of Ayton and doesn’t have Ayton’s touch, but he’s probably a better rim defender. He’s also a bit better in that connector role we like for our bigs. Bad ft shooter and doesn’t have any range though. Honestly not positive if he can switch at all, I’d assume he’s not at Ayton’s level there as not many are.

The #9 pick would have already been made, so some of its value drops, but it would still be a rookie and hold a little bit of that I could be anything appeal. I’m mostly thinking in terms of value in trading them later.

[The Bobster]

Chucky Brown, not Chucky Atkins.

[specialsauce]

I'm probably a 3. A 7 is a pretty bad take if you ask me Split. If you reverse you're logic, on a scale of 1 to 10 in how you view his skills as a center, you're basically saying he's a 3.

No I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying I’m a 7 on how strongly I want to trade him. I’m not gonna take a garbage offer, but if Ayton is a quarter and is threatening to sign an offer sheet, I’m willing to take two dimes and a nickel for him. I don’t need to get a quarter in return or trade him up with other pieces for a dollar. I’d certainly try to get those, but if that’s not an option I don’t have a lot of faith in bringing him back and it working out at this point.

Two dimes and a nickel = Warrick, Turkoglu, Childress

Two dimes and a nickel = Chucky Atkins, Horry, Cassell

Nah, the first one is definitely a nickel and two pennies. Warrick and Childress were not good assets and turkoglu was getting old.

Your next one is more accurate, though I’d say Cassel is actually a quarter. Just not for us and we didn’t keep him around. Horry won 5 titles after his stint with us and was a very valuable role player. Just again not for us.

You also have to factor in a couple other things:

1. Amare was not traded for that pu pu platter so it’s not a fair comparison anyways.

2. Barkley asked to be traded, no? And he was pretty much at the end of his usefulness. He was 33 and not the same player anymore. It’d be more like trading Harden now.

3. Also Cassel was later packaged in a trade for Jason Kidd. So it was really like Barkley and Finley got you Horry and Kidd. So we ended up with the best player. Suns could very well do that again.

So comparing to what I’d accept in an Ayton trade, the Amare pu pu platter is not close, but the Barkley package is probably. A 26 year old future all-nba pg, a championship level role player and two other role player/contracts. It might be a touch low as I don’t recall how Cassel was perceived at the time as he broke out later.

But comparing to Poeltl, Vassel, and #9

Vassell is my favorite piece there. He’s basically a 21 year old Mikal clone. Sign me up for that please. I think he’s actually a better shooter than Mikal, though a touch smaller I believe. He’s probably more like a dime/nickel combo and 2 years from now we might think he was worth trading for Ayton by himself.

Poeltl is Poeltl, he’s a dime. Not going to surprise us with any new skills. Maybe CP3 gets him better looks than he’s used to, but he’s not the athlete of Ayton and doesn’t have Ayton’s touch, but he’s probably a better rim defender. He’s also a bit better in that connector role we like for our bigs. Bad ft shooter and doesn’t have any range though. Honestly not positive if he can switch at all, I’d assume he’s not at Ayton’s level there as not many are.

The #9 pick would have already been made, so some of its value drops, but it would still be a rookie and hold a little bit of that I could be anything appeal. I’m mostly thinking in terms of value in trading them later.

Turkoglu averaged 11/4.6/4.1 and 37.5% from three the year before he joined us. Hardly a penny, easy to say he sucked for us now buts exactly the same mediocre trash we’d be acquiring for DA.

We do not need any more Mikal. We need playmakers.

[Split T]

Turkoglu was the nickel…Childress and Warrick were the Pennies. And yes I know we need playmakers, I’m not suggesting just making this one move and calling it good.

I just think bringing Ayton back would be detrimental to the team. I don’t think we want him, he doesn’t want to be here, he doesn’t want to play the way we want him to play. Ya if our hands are forced and we have to match an offer, you match because you can’t lose him for nothing. But, my point is if I feel like I can get 3 pieces that add up to the same value as Ayton, I’ll take it. That value is always better if it’s in 1 player, but I think waiting till mid season to trade him is a bad idea. I think we’ll have chemistry issues and his value will drop.

I just want it to be over with and I’d rather get what we can(assuming it meets a certain threshold) and move on. Use the pieces you got from Ayton to make a trade later rather than hold Ayton and trade him later.

I don’t think Ayton will work here as long as Monty, JJ, and CP3 are in charge. I know you(specialsauce) would prefer to move away from CP3, but that’s clearly not happening so I don’t see the point in exploring it. But I do understand why you’d say that. I’m assuming you’ve essentially given up on this team being able to win a title and would rather see them make moves with a longer term view in mind. I still think we can win next year.

[The Bobster]

If "not working" means winning 60 games a year with occasional trips to the Finals sprinked in, sign me up.

[Superbone]

I just think bringing Ayton back would be detrimental to the team. I don’t think we want him, he doesn’t want to be here, he doesn’t want to play the way we want him to play.

A lot of assumptions being made here. I don't know if any or all of it is true. Of course frustrations are going to bubble up for everybody the way our playoffs ended. I hope cooler heads prevail and we make the right decisions based on all the actual parameters. I can't imagine Ayton doesn't like playing with his teammates and doesn't want to be here.

[Superbone]

If "not working" means winning 60 games a year with occasional trips to the Finals sprinkled in, sign me up.

Ain't that the truth.