Suns 2022 Off-Season Thread

[Indy]

If "not working" means winning 60 games a year with occasional trips to the Finals sprinked in, sign me up.

I personally want to win a title and don’t think our current core(Paul, Booker, Bridges, Crowder, Ayton, Cam J) is gonna do it. A 3rd creator is a must and it gets very hard to find that if you keep Ayton on a max. You could do it with Bridges, but I’d choose to keep Bridges over Ayton. Especially since he just tweeted he loves it here this morning.

See, I am the other way around - I think Ayton has a much higher ceiling than Bridges does. I think he has a higher ceiling than Booker does too.

Will he ever get to his ceiling? Probably not, but I do think he's going to be much better than he is now in a few years just by developing some consistency on offense.

By 'ceiling' do you mean, if he changed his complete identity and drive while also adding skills he has never shown? Or do you mean by just standard progression you see year after year from someone going from year 4 to 5 to 6?

I ask because I don't think there is a basketball analyst out there that would agree that Ayton has a higher ceiling in this league than Booker.

Ya, call me when Ayton is 1st Team All-NBA

Or create his own shot. I wonder if anyone else in the league has their #2 guy in FGAs creating less than 25% of his own shots, much less the <19% of Ayton's. Your top FGA guys have to both create their own shots, and shots for others. He doesn't really do either.

[Split T]

What are the rumors? I'm behind on this thread.

That Paul and Monty had a sort of falling out. Or the rumor that Paul was playing hurt. If the former is true it probably had to do with how to handle the latter.

If Paul and Monty had a fight, and Ayton and Monty had a fight...who's the common denominator there?

Coming for Monty huh? I’m not even gonna entertain that

He shouldn't take any of the blame or responsibility for the disastrous ending to the season?

Certainly but for not making adjustments when what we were doing wasn’t working. Not for his personal relationships with the players. Also the CP3 stuff is some unsubstantiated rumor, I wouldn’t use it to attack Monty

[specialsauce]

Every time Ayton seals his man, gets the ball and gets a right hook into the basket he should be credited with creating his shot. It’s completely misleading stat just because he didn’t have to dribble.

When his gravity draws 3 defenders into the paint and we get an open 3, that’s creating a shot.

He is a great passer. He has great gravity because of the threat. And he progressed in the short roll this year. The convenient use of misleading stats is cute

[JeremyG]

I personally want to win a title and don’t think our current core(Paul, Booker, Bridges, Crowder, Ayton, Cam J) is gonna do it. A 3rd creator is a must and it gets very hard to find that if you keep Ayton on a max. You could do it with Bridges, but I’d choose to keep Bridges over Ayton. Especially since he just tweeted he loves it here this morning.

See, I am the other way around - I think Ayton has a much higher ceiling than Bridges does. I think he has a higher ceiling than Booker does too.

Will he ever get to his ceiling? Probably not, but I do think he's going to be much better than he is now in a few years just by developing some consistency on offense.

By 'ceiling' do you mean, if he changed his complete identity and drive while also adding skills he has never shown? Or do you mean by just standard progression you see year after year from someone going from year 4 to 5 to 6?

I ask because I don't think there is a basketball analyst out there that would agree that Ayton has a higher ceiling in this league than Booker.

Ya, call me when Ayton is 1st Team All-NBA

Or create his own shot. I wonder if anyone else in the league has their #2 guy in FGAs creating less than 25% of his own shots, much less the <19% of Ayton's. Your top FGA guys have to both create their own shots, and shots for others. He doesn't really do either.

How about a #1 like Karl Malone? It used to happen all the time.

[Split T]

Every time Ayton seals his man, gets the ball and gets a right hook into the basket he should be credited with creating his shot. It’s completely misleading stat just because he didn’t have to dribble.

When his gravity draws 3 defenders into the paint and we get an open 3, that’s creating a shot.

He is a great passer. He has great gravity because of the threat. And he progressed in the short roll this year. The convenient use of misleading stats is cute

That’s venturing a little too far into jazz fans talking about Rudy territory for me, at least you didn’t bring up screen assists.

Ayton has great touch and I do agree that him sealing his man low and getting a nice easy hook is very helpful. But it’s different from creating a shot…that’s like giving Mikal credit for creating a shot when he leaks out in transition or on a back cut. Those are opportunistic plays that can’t be relied on regularly. I want Ayton to add something to his game that we could reliably go to when we need it. I want him to be able to create a play from a position where the defense concedes it to him. Like from his DHO position or on a short roll catch.

He progressed a little there, but it seemed more like a flash in the pan. He still regularly catches the ball on the short roll and doesn’t know what to do. He freezes and misses easy opportunities to attack.

[JeremyG]

That Paul and Monty had a sort of falling out. Or the rumor that Paul was playing hurt. If the former is true it probably had to do with how to handle the latter.

If Paul and Monty had a fight, and Ayton and Monty had a fight...who's the common denominator there?

Coming for Monty huh? I’m not even gonna entertain that

He shouldn't take any of the blame or responsibility for the disastrous ending to the season?

Certainly but for not making adjustments when what we were doing wasn’t working. Not for his personal relationships with the players. Also the CP3 stuff is some unsubstantiated rumor, I wouldn’t use it to attack Monty

No blame for the mentality of the team?

[Split T]

Yes that too…you willing to blame Ayton for anything? Or just all on Monty and the other players?

[TOO]

See, I am the other way around - I think Ayton has a much higher ceiling than Bridges does. I think he has a higher ceiling than Booker does too.

Will he ever get to his ceiling? Probably not, but I do think he's going to be much better than he is now in a few years just by developing some consistency on offense.

By 'ceiling' do you mean, if he changed his complete identity and drive while also adding skills he has never shown? Or do you mean by just standard progression you see year after year from someone going from year 4 to 5 to 6?

I ask because I don't think there is a basketball analyst out there that would agree that Ayton has a higher ceiling in this league than Booker.

Ya, call me when Ayton is 1st Team All-NBA

Or create his own shot. I wonder if anyone else in the league has their #2 guy in FGAs creating less than 25% of his own shots, much less the <19% of Ayton's. Your top FGA guys have to both create their own shots, and shots for others. He doesn't really do either.

How about a #1 like Karl Malone? It used to happen all the time.

Yeah man, in the 90s. LOL.

[JeremyG]

By 'ceiling' do you mean, if he changed his complete identity and drive while also adding skills he has never shown? Or do you mean by just standard progression you see year after year from someone going from year 4 to 5 to 6?

I ask because I don't think there is a basketball analyst out there that would agree that Ayton has a higher ceiling in this league than Booker.

Ya, call me when Ayton is 1st Team All-NBA

Or create his own shot. I wonder if anyone else in the league has their #2 guy in FGAs creating less than 25% of his own shots, much less the <19% of Ayton's. Your top FGA guys have to both create their own shots, and shots for others. He doesn't really do either.

How about a #1 like Karl Malone? It used to happen all the time.

Yeah man, in the 90s. LOL.

The 90s, like Chris Paul's game?

[JeremyG]

Yes that too…you willing to blame Ayton for anything? Or just all on Monty and the other players?

Sure, but he's like reason number 1 million why they didn't make the Western Conference Finals. Like Bobster said, he's the only one who showed up in Game 6.

[TOO]

Ya, call me when Ayton is 1st Team All-NBA

Or create his own shot. I wonder if anyone else in the league has their #2 guy in FGAs creating less than 25% of his own shots, much less the <19% of Ayton's. Your top FGA guys have to both create their own shots, and shots for others. He doesn't really do either.

How about a #1 like Karl Malone? It used to happen all the time.

Yeah man, in the 90s. LOL.

The 90s, like Chris Paul's game?

You mean playing PG? This doesn't make any sense.

[Indy]

Yes that too…you willing to blame Ayton for anything? Or just all on Monty and the other players?

Sure, but he's like reason number 1 million why they didn't make the Western Conference Finals. Like Bobster said, he's the only one who showed up in Game 6.

He made 3 baskets all game that were not assisted. I mean, good on him for making 10 baskets and leading the team in scoring. That is great. But to say everyone on the team and the coaching staff and front office carry more responsibility for the Suns losing to the series to the Mavs shows an inability to look at this objectively.

[Indy]

This sums up where I am pretty well:

[SunsRIt]

Maybe, that’s where we’re different, I don’t believe a Ayton gets much better than he currently is

25 and 12, with defense, is a very real(and likely in my opinion) possibility.

How do you think he gets to 25?

He’s been 16-18-14-17 in his first 4 years. Have we ever had a 25 ppg scorer that doesn’t create his own shot at times?

5-6 more free throws and 6 more shots a game. I think he will “get it” and those numbers will be easy.

[SunsRIt]

By 'ceiling' do you mean, if he changed his complete identity and drive while also adding skills he has never shown? Or do you mean by just standard progression you see year after year from someone going from year 4 to 5 to 6?

I ask because I don't think there is a basketball analyst out there that would agree that Ayton has a higher ceiling in this league than Booker.

Ya, call me when Ayton is 1st Team All-NBA

Or create his own shot. I wonder if anyone else in the league has their #2 guy in FGAs creating less than 25% of his own shots, much less the <19% of Ayton's. Your top FGA guys have to both create their own shots, and shots for others. He doesn't really do either.

How about a #1 like Karl Malone? It used to happen all the time.

Yeah man, in the 90s. LOL.

Karl Malone was assisted on 79% of his shots. He was MVP two times with that number. Shaq was 60-65%. You guys a putting way to much weight on that number. Just because Embiid, Jokic and Giannis are different doesn’t mean Ayton is a bad player. It means he doesn’t dribble the ball upcourt and shoot it. It also means the Suns have a lot of ball movement before the shot. Not a bad thing.

[JeremyG]

Ya, call me when Ayton is 1st Team All-NBA

Or create his own shot. I wonder if anyone else in the league has their #2 guy in FGAs creating less than 25% of his own shots, much less the <19% of Ayton's. Your top FGA guys have to both create their own shots, and shots for others. He doesn't really do either.

How about a #1 like Karl Malone? It used to happen all the time.

Yeah man, in the 90s. LOL.

Karl Malone was assisted on 79% of his shots. He was MVP two times with that number. Shaq was 60-65%. You guys a putting way to much weight on that number. Just because Embiid, Jokic and Giannis are different doesn’t mean Ayton is a bad player. It means he doesn’t dribble the ball upcourt and shoot it. It also means the Suns have a lot of ball movement before the shot. Not a bad thing.

Yep. And even Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing were all close to that 75% number.

For the Suns, Shawn Marion was over 75% assisted in 2005-06 as our #1 in FGA, and 2006-07 as our #2.

[specialsauce]

This sums up where I am pretty well:

Thats only $22M less than a max deal, or an average of $4.4M annually. You’d rather have Devin Vassell than DA if it comes to that? Over $4.4M of cap space?

And if DA signs a 4 year deal for $131M elsewhere, you’re looking at only a $3M annual difference over what is proposed above.

You’re basically saying where you draw the line is that you’d rather lose DA so you have enough cap space to sign Ish Wainwright. Makes no sense.

Now if someone says they don’t want to give him more than a Mikal deal, or something like a Jarrett Allen $100M deal, that’s a bigger difference

[Split T]

Yes that too…you willing to blame Ayton for anything? Or just all on Monty and the other players?

Sure, but he's like reason number 1 million why they didn't make the Western Conference Finals. Like Bobster said, he's the only one who showed up in Game 6.

Lol, so Ayton gets all the credit when he plays well but it’s always someone else’s fault when he doesn’t.

[Split T]

This sums up where I am pretty well:

Thats only $22M less than a max deal, or an average of $4.4M annually. You’d rather have Devin Vassell than DA if it comes to that? Over $4.4M of cap space?

And if DA signs a 4 year deal for $131M elsewhere, you’re looking at only a $3M annual difference over what is proposed above.

You’re basically saying where you draw the line is that you’d rather lose DA so you have enough cap space to sign Ish Wainwright. Makes no sense.

Now if someone says they don’t want to give him more than a Mikal deal, or something like a Jarrett Allen $100M deal, that’s a bigger difference

Max is 176, so it’s 26 million less or 5.2 million per year. That’s not a huge deal, but it’s not nothing. I also think it’s a touch high for me. I’d start him at 25 but I’d only go 4 years and wouldn’t give him the 8% increase. Something like 4/110 would be what I feel comfortable giving him. Of course he’d never sign that as he can get a max offer sheet from someone. But yes I’d still match the offer sheet and trade him later if it came to that.

[AmareIsGod]

Yes that too…you willing to blame Ayton for anything? Or just all on Monty and the other players?

Sure, but he's like reason number 1 million why they didn't make the Western Conference Finals. Like Bobster said, he's the only one who showed up in Game 6.

Lol, so Ayton gets all the credit when he plays well but it’s always someone else’s fault when he doesn’t.

No. It's just a bit unfair the amount of continual scrutiny he gets when his higher paid and #1 / #2 options on the team lay multiple eggs this season during the playoffs. Also, he's 23. I don't want 3 mid tier guys in the late 20s to early 30s because they are what they are and only have a decline ahead of them.