Suns 2022 Off-Season Thread

[AmareIsGod]

Yes that too…you willing to blame Ayton for anything? Or just all on Monty and the other players?

Sure, but he's like reason number 1 million why they didn't make the Western Conference Finals. Like Bobster said, he's the only one who showed up in Game 6.

Lol, so Ayton gets all the credit when he plays well but it’s always someone else’s fault when he doesn’t.

No. It's just a bit unfair the amount of continual scrutiny he gets when his higher paid and #1 / #2 options on the team lay multiple eggs this season during the playoffs. Also, he's 23. I don't want 3 mid tier guys in their late 20s to early 30s because they are what they are and only have a decline ahead of them.

[Split T]

Or create his own shot. I wonder if anyone else in the league has their #2 guy in FGAs creating less than 25% of his own shots, much less the <19% of Ayton's. Your top FGA guys have to both create their own shots, and shots for others. He doesn't really do either.

How about a #1 like Karl Malone? It used to happen all the time.

Yeah man, in the 90s. LOL.

Karl Malone was assisted on 79% of his shots. He was MVP two times with that number. Shaq was 60-65%. You guys a putting way to much weight on that number. Just because Embiid, Jokic and Giannis are different doesn’t mean Ayton is a bad player. It means he doesn’t dribble the ball upcourt and shoot it. It also means the Suns have a lot of ball movement before the shot. Not a bad thing.

Yep. And even Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing were all close to that 75% number.

For the Suns, Shawn Marion was over 75% assisted in 2005-06 as our #1 in FGA, and 2006-07 as our #2.

We’re talking about a different era of basketball when teams force fed the post. I know that’s what you want us to do for Ayton, but there’s a reason the nba went away from that. It was inefficient. Those Rocket teams led by Hakeem topped out at about a 109 offensive rating, league average was 112 this year. The Knicks were even worse, topping out at about 108. The Jazz did have more success offensively, but that was helped out by a couple high efficiency guard in Stockton and Hornacek. Also they ran more pick n roll than post ups.

The 90’s were also an era that made post play easier. You couldn’t play zone. Had to either man up or commit to the double team. Lots of 1 on 1 post play or easier passes because everyone is glued to a man and someone would be wide open with a double. Hand checking on the perimeter also made driving tougher and led to teams using post play to get to the rim. It just doesn’t make sense to play the way you want to anymore.

[TOO]

How about a #1 like Karl Malone? It used to happen all the time.

Yeah man, in the 90s. LOL.

Karl Malone was assisted on 79% of his shots. He was MVP two times with that number. Shaq was 60-65%. You guys a putting way to much weight on that number. Just because Embiid, Jokic and Giannis are different doesn’t mean Ayton is a bad player. It means he doesn’t dribble the ball upcourt and shoot it. It also means the Suns have a lot of ball movement before the shot. Not a bad thing.

Yep. And even Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing were all close to that 75% number.

For the Suns, Shawn Marion was over 75% assisted in 2005-06 as our #1 in FGA, and 2006-07 as our #2.

We’re talking about a different era of basketball when teams force fed the post. I know that’s what you want us to do for Ayton, but there’s a reason the nba went away from that. It was inefficient. Those Rocket teams led by Hakeem topped out at about a 109 offensive rating, league average was 112 this year. The Knicks were even worse, topping out at about 108. The Jazz did have more success offensively, but that was helped out by a couple high efficiency guard in Stockton and Hornacek. Also they ran more pick n roll than post ups.

The 90’s were also an era that made post play easier. You couldn’t play zone. Had to either man up or commit to the double team. Lots of 1 on 1 post play or easier passes because everyone is glued to a man and someone would be wide open with a double. Hand checking on the perimeter also made driving tougher and led to teams using post play to get to the rim. It just doesn’t make sense to play the way you want to anymore.

Apparently we should just force it anyway. Force it to a guy who hasn't shown an alpha gene, even in college where he was bigger and more athletic than everyone else. Just max him and make him play with a focus he doesn't have with an aggression he doesn't have, what could go wrong?

[AmareIsGod]

Thankfully I'm not the only one double posting. Might be an issue with the server.

[Split T]

Thankfully I'm not the only one double posting. Might be an issue with the server.

Ya for me, once I hit submit on a post it sits there for awhile and makes me think I didn’t actually submit it, so I try again…but now I know to just let it think for a bit.

[Superbone]

Thankfully I'm not the only one double posting. Might be an issue with the server.

Ya for me, once I hit submit on a post it sits there for awhile and makes me think I didn’t actually submit it, so I try again…but now I know to just let it think for a bit.

I just deleted the two extras. I meant to post about this yesterday. That's when I've started noticing it takes really long to make a post now. No issues for me on other websites so something changed for our site. @Marty? (Yeah, I know that doesn't work.)

[Superbone]

This Kellan Olson article lays out the Ayton issue pretty well and mirrors many of my same thoughts and observations about him:

Deandre Ayton’s departure would be Phoenix Suns admitting past failure
https://arizonasports.com/story/3161525 ... t-failure/

Some highlight quotes:

He is a borderline top-five player at his position. He’s great on defense and good on offense with far more potential left to un-tap as a 23-year-old who just reached over 250 games in the regular and postseason.

Why is this even a possibility, let alone what you would bet on happening if you had to pick between him coming back or not?

Ayton wants the five-year max worth $177 million only the Suns can offer him. I thought he deserved it last year. I still think he deserves it this year. Premium young talent is not cheap. You have to pay the price for it.

One of the central arguments around not giving Ayton a contract that would pay him an average salary over $30 million a season, though, is that it’s too much for a guy who is not individually a core part of the offense.

Now, to be clear, Ayton still is a core part of the offense. It’s just as a screener and diver who sucks in help defenders to open everything and everyone else up.

For one, Ayton’s one-on-one offense slows down the principles at the root of what Phoenix does through 0.5, quick-hitting movement on and off the ball that keeps the opposing defense in rotations and makes them pay from different angles.

Secondly, Ayton and his teammates have never had a consistent connection.

Sometimes, the ball-handler would look down low and see Ayton not establishing post position when he should have been. Now they aren’t going to take a peek down there for a few possessions or flat-out look Ayton off.

Sometimes, Ayton is sealing his man and has been for a couple of seconds and either the should-be passer isn’t aware or can’t get him the ball.

Sometimes, the synergy is there, but it’s either a bad pass or Ayton’s lack of proper positioning allowing for the defender to get a swipe at the entry for a turnover.

It never fully linked up. This past season showed a great amount of progress, but again, it came with peaks and valleys.

He has never been an elite, reliable go-to scorer in the post with a diverse arsenal, either.

This year, Ayton’s touch on his hook shot reached a very high level. And in short roll situations, he developed a floater that is money. Those two things were huge steps forward and continued the trend of him improving considerably each season.

Beyond that, however, there isn’t a ton. Ayton’s lack of consistent aggression as a ball-handler has held him back. He should always be able to punish an opposing defense by turning a catch 18 feet away from the rim into a six-foot hook shot with the snap of a finger.

We’ve had plenty of glimpses of the good and bad in this process, but there hasn’t been nearly enough consistency in order for him to be an occasional hub of the offense, and that’s a shame given the physical gifts of his footwork and strength.

There was also his lack of physicality mentioned in there. Ayton was not putting dudes from the University of Maryland, Baltimore County in the basket before he dunked it on their noggin, so there was natural skepticism about if he could do it in the pros.

It has been tolerated in Phoenix. He doesn’t throw it down too often and it’s OK for how his game works.

This inconsistent play described here, the difference between the Pelicans series and the Mavericks series is why so many of us have gone back and forth on whether Ayton is worth the max.

To go back to the word “tolerated,” it has now been four years. That’s long enough to put in concrete that this is just who Ayton can be in spurts until he consistently proves otherwise.

I’ve been intentionally overusing “consistent” for this portion because we’ve seen Ayton overcome this before. A month ago, he was coming off a phenomenal first-round performance against the New Orleans Pelicans, stepping up offensively while Devin Booker healed up.

After dominating against a supersized frontcourt that required force, it was gonzo versus the Dallas Mavericks’ tiny frontcourt.

The detached way in which Ayton is unengaged loops back to pre-draft concerns about his defense, where he looked lost and did a tremendous job getting better in his first three years to become one of the best defensive bigs in basketball. But that lack of direct, decisive and connected play still rears its head on both ends.

Everything came full circle because it was the player they should have taken who potentially sealed the end of Ayton’s Suns tenure.

So, I think we can all agree that this version of Ayton is going to get the max whether it's with us or somebody else. The question becomes whether the Suns would rather go with this or move on with other pieces to make up that salary. Whether we end up better in the short term and the long run or worse is the question if the Suns decide to move on from him. If they do move on, there is no question that picking him #1 overall was a failure by the organization. However, that was the old Sarver/McDonough regime and it could be a big reason why McDonough was let go. Well, that and his horrible team building skills.

[Split T]

That’s a good article and does a better job of explaining a lot of how I feel. I was back and forth on whether I thought Ayton was worth the max and settled on no after the season. At least for us. I do think he’s worth the max for say a team like Detroit or Charlotte. I’ve always been fine matching a max offer sheet, but I now prefer to sign and trade him immediately rather than trade him later.

I understand I’d be willing to move him for less than most on here, I just worry we’re gonna run into chemistry issues if he’s on the team and that will hurt his value. If no feelings are hurt and he’s willing to play his part(with perhaps the team trying to accommodate him more as a bigger part of the offense), I’d get behind a 4 year max. I'd just be nervous matching in a scenario where he’s asked us to let him go. Not sure what version of Ayton would show up.

[TOO]

I don't think he's worth the max for anyone, centers just aren't THAT important unless you have one of the generational ones. He's a very good 2 way player, but unless he either adds a reliable 3pt shot or starts dunking on everyone, he's just a suped up role player.

[Split T]

I think a young team like Detroit or Charlotte with a young up and coming ball handler can afford to let Ayton develop and will get enough value out of him to make it worth it. Just getting to the playoffs would be a success for those teams at this point.

[Wally_West]

[Superbone]

Interesting. I wonder what “highly complex” means exactly.

[JeremyG]

Yeah as soon as the Finals are over, it will magically be ready to announce.

[JeremyG]

How about a #1 like Karl Malone? It used to happen all the time.

Yeah man, in the 90s. LOL.

Karl Malone was assisted on 79% of his shots. He was MVP two times with that number. Shaq was 60-65%. You guys a putting way to much weight on that number. Just because Embiid, Jokic and Giannis are different doesn’t mean Ayton is a bad player. It means he doesn’t dribble the ball upcourt and shoot it. It also means the Suns have a lot of ball movement before the shot. Not a bad thing.

Yep. And even Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing were all close to that 75% number.

For the Suns, Shawn Marion was over 75% assisted in 2005-06 as our #1 in FGA, and 2006-07 as our #2.

We’re talking about a different era of basketball when teams force fed the post. I know that’s what you want us to do for Ayton, but there’s a reason the nba went away from that. It was inefficient. Those Rocket teams led by Hakeem topped out at about a 109 offensive rating, league average was 112 this year. The Knicks were even worse, topping out at about 108. The Jazz did have more success offensively, but that was helped out by a couple high efficiency guard in Stockton and Hornacek. Also they ran more pick n roll than post ups.

The 90’s were also an era that made post play easier. You couldn’t play zone. Had to either man up or commit to the double team. Lots of 1 on 1 post play or easier passes because everyone is glued to a man and someone would be wide open with a double. Hand checking on the perimeter also made driving tougher and led to teams using post play to get to the rim. It just doesn’t make sense to play the way you want to anymore.

Yeah and the NBA went away from the midrange game because it was inefficient. But you don’t mind Chris Paul and Devin Booker throwing it back to that.

And for everyone around the Suns fandom saying they need to shoot more threes and bring in more shooters, why not just let Ayton shoot threes? He has great form and has shown he can knock them down—he would no doubt be better than Crowder!

[Superbone]

Yeah man, in the 90s. LOL.

Karl Malone was assisted on 79% of his shots. He was MVP two times with that number. Shaq was 60-65%. You guys a putting way to much weight on that number. Just because Embiid, Jokic and Giannis are different doesn’t mean Ayton is a bad player. It means he doesn’t dribble the ball upcourt and shoot it. It also means the Suns have a lot of ball movement before the shot. Not a bad thing.

Yep. And even Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing were all close to that 75% number.

For the Suns, Shawn Marion was over 75% assisted in 2005-06 as our #1 in FGA, and 2006-07 as our #2.

We’re talking about a different era of basketball when teams force fed the post. I know that’s what you want us to do for Ayton, but there’s a reason the nba went away from that. It was inefficient. Those Rocket teams led by Hakeem topped out at about a 109 offensive rating, league average was 112 this year. The Knicks were even worse, topping out at about 108. The Jazz did have more success offensively, but that was helped out by a couple high efficiency guard in Stockton and Hornacek. Also they ran more pick n roll than post ups.

The 90’s were also an era that made post play easier. You couldn’t play zone. Had to either man up or commit to the double team. Lots of 1 on 1 post play or easier passes because everyone is glued to a man and someone would be wide open with a double. Hand checking on the perimeter also made driving tougher and led to teams using post play to get to the rim. It just doesn’t make sense to play the way you want to anymore.

Yeah and the NBA went away from the midrange game because it was inefficient. But you don’t mind Chris Paul and Devin Booker throwing it back to that.

And for everyone around the Suns fandom saying they need to shoot more threes and bring in more shooters, why not just let Ayton shoot threes? He has great form and has shown he can knock them down—he would no doubt be better than Crowder!

I don’t think he would be with the same volume.

[Flagrant Fowl]

I don't think he has great form on 3-point shots at all. He shoots a line drive ball that works for him in the mid range, but is really hard to hit consistently on volume from deep.

He also has only taken them from the top of the key, which is an indication of his inability to hit them from elsewhere in practice.

[ShelC]

Interesting. I wonder what “highly complex” means exactly.

Maybe they have dirt on Sarver from credible people but not hard proof (texts, emails, recordings) or he may have said inappropriate, cringe type of things but not anything that would force him to sell. Or if a sale is involved, getting investors/ownership lined up for a takeover? It's big business and Sarver might've been pretty entrenched as an owner/league official to where they can't just cut ties so easily. I still get the feeling they kinda know Sarver said a lot of those things but aren't going to force him to sell, which may have upset some of the players late in the year. That's just conjecture on my part tho.

[Indy]

Interesting. I wonder what “highly complex” means exactly.

Maybe they have dirt on Sarver from credible people but not hard proof (texts, emails, recordings) or he may have said inappropriate, cringe type of things but not anything that would force him to sell. Or if a sale is involved, getting investors/ownership lined up for a takeover? It's big business and Sarver might've been pretty entrenched as an owner/league official to where they can't just cut ties so easily. I still get the feeling they kinda know Sarver said a lot of those things but aren't going to force him to sell, which may have upset some of the players late in the year. That's just conjecture on my part tho.

It is complex because Sarver is really Silver's boss, right? The owners higher the commissioner to run the league for them. It is hard to have your employee fire you. I think he would need to get enough of the other owners on the same page, and getting a bunch of white guy billionaires to agree to kick out another rich white guy for "just being a little racist" or a "little sexist" is hard. Also, I assume his contract might be specific enough that they would have to something really big to force him out.

[Indy]

I don't think he has great form on 3-point shots at all. He shoots a line drive ball that works for him in the mid range, but is really hard to hit consistently on volume from deep.

He also has only taken them from the top of the key, which is an indication of his inability to hit them from elsewhere in practice.

You want to trade 5-6 of Ayton's shots from <10 feet for 3 pointers? Or are you saying he needs to take 18-19 shots a game?

And that is great he shot 36.8% from 3, but it was on 19 attempts all season. He is open from there at least once or twice a game.

[Wally_West]