No reason to take a bad deal just because it's the only one on the table. Go into the season with Ayton and then when the right opportunity presents itself - pounce.
You’re right…but we’re forgetting 2 things:
1. It’s not just Nurkic coming to us. What else we get will be key. No one wants a Nurkic for Ayton straight swap.
2. It’s possible the relationship with Ayton is not worth continuing. If someone like Booker is done with him you move him. Or Ayton himself might be the one who is done here. Don’t think this can be ruled out.
Dragging it out isn’t going to help or be good for the team. It needs to be taken care of before the season. Remember when we brought Markieff in and made him play half the season…he was awful.
Figured I'd get flamed a bit for this and it's not an apples to apples comp but I've looked at it similarly in terms of fit vs talent. And because of that, I keep coming back to the Rubio v TJ Warren move we made and got killed for at the time. Everyone questioned how we could give away a 20pt scorer in TJ just to free up space and basically give that money to Rubio? But we needed Rubio's skillset at point more than we needed TJ's 20ppg at the SF spot. And similarly, Rubio was older and had injury concerns when we signed him. Maybe Jones is looking at it the same way. It's a talent downgrade overall, but a better fit.
I'd buy this if I bought that Nurkic was a better fit than Ayton. Sure, he may be better in some areas, but I think he's a worse defender and to me that makes him a worse fit. He's also less mobile, less available and older.
The fact that he would "accept a lesser role" is not moving me. So would 100 different players. He's also not well suited to play that lesser role. He's not a rim runner and he's not a particularly credible floor spacer.
No reason to take a bad deal just because it's the only one on the table. Go into the season with Ayton and then when the right opportunity presents itself - pounce.
You’re right…but we’re forgetting 2 things:
1. It’s not just Nurkic coming to us. What else we get will be key. No one wants a Nurkic for Ayton straight swap.
2. It’s possible the relationship with Ayton is not worth continuing. If someone like Booker is done with him you move him. Or Ayton himself might be the one who is done here. Don’t think this can be ruled out.
Dragging it out isn’t going to help or be good for the team. It needs to be taken care of before the season. Remember when we brought Markieff in and made him play half the season…he was awful.
I'm not forgetting. Just responding to Gambo's latest posts.
I do agree that there's a possibility Ayton has requested out.
No reason to take a bad deal just because it's the only one on the table. Go into the season with Ayton and then when the right opportunity presents itself - pounce.
You’re right…but we’re forgetting 2 things:
1. It’s not just Nurkic coming to us. What else we get will be key. No one wants a Nurkic for Ayton straight swap.
2. It’s possible the relationship with Ayton is not worth continuing. If someone like Booker is done with him you move him. Or Ayton himself might be the one who is done here. Don’t think this can be ruled out.
Dragging it out isn’t going to help or be good for the team. It needs to be taken care of before the season. Remember when we brought Markieff in and made him play half the season…he was awful.
He was just practicing with Booker and KD at UCLA. I don’t think they hate each other. There’s been no evidence to back up those rumors.
Last edited by JeremyG on Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
Figured I'd get flamed a bit for this and it's not an apples to apples comp but I've looked at it similarly in terms of fit vs talent. And because of that, I keep coming back to the Rubio v TJ Warren move we made and got killed for at the time. Everyone questioned how we could give away a 20pt scorer in TJ just to free up space and basically give that money to Rubio? But we needed Rubio's skillset at point more than we needed TJ's 20ppg at the SF spot. And similarly, Rubio was older and had injury concerns when we signed him. Maybe Jones is looking at it the same way. It's a talent downgrade overall, but a better fit.
I'd buy this if I bought that Nurkic was a better fit than Ayton. Sure, he may be better in some areas, but I think he's a worse defender and to me that makes him a worse fit. He's also less mobile, less available and older.
The fact that he would "accept a lesser role" is not moving me. So would 100 different players. He's also not well suited to play that lesser role. He's not a rim runner and he's not a particularly credible floor spacer.
I agree. This “better fit” thing is the most ridiculous excuse I’ve ever heard.
If we are trying to play at a faster pace, then how on earth is Nurkic a “better fit”?
I also agree with you that I would rather trade Ayton for tons of other centers (if he was demanding out or we had to trade him for some reason) ahead of Nurkic. Capela or any number of centers would be better!
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
People always overlook the two sides (or more) of every trade. This isn't NBA2K.
These other teams have to be willing to trade their player as well, and despite what some believe, Deandre Ayton alone isn't moving the needle enough for them to disrupt what they believe they're building.
Send me a PM if you're interested in joining the phx-suns.net fantasy basketball league.
No reason to take a bad deal just because it's the only one on the table. Go into the season with Ayton and then when the right opportunity presents itself - pounce.
You’re right…but we’re forgetting 2 things:
1. It’s not just Nurkic coming to us. What else we get will be key. No one wants a Nurkic for Ayton straight swap.
2. It’s possible the relationship with Ayton is not worth continuing. If someone like Booker is done with him you move him. Or Ayton himself might be the one who is done here. Don’t think this can be ruled out.
Dragging it out isn’t going to help or be good for the team. It needs to be taken care of before the season. Remember when we brought Markieff in and made him play half the season…he was awful.
He was just practicing with Booker and KD at UCLA. I don’t think they hate each other. There’s been no evidence to back up those rumors.
There’s a lot of room between hating someone and not wanting them on the team. I think Ayton is a very likable person…but it’s hard for me to believe that Booker, as competitive as he is, isn’t turned off a bit by Ayton’s on/off motor and temperament. This is as a basketball player, not a person.
I am still blown away at how many people think an Ayton for Nurkic trade would be anything but a massive downgrade at the center position. The excuses being thrown around are flimsier than some of Jeremy's arguments propping up Ayton.
And...even if we get OG back, is even him a big enough upgrade to the SF/PF position over KBD or Yuta -- consummate role players?
I don't have any answers but I certainly don't buy the ones being thrown around here. And if the Anti Ayton folks are going to make such flimsy arguments -- well, maybe you shouldn't beat up on Jeremy when he does the same.
Nuric and the trades spoken of so far are mostly crap. If we trade Ayton without keeping the move at least lateral on a defensive big, we're f'd. Jokic etc. are still going to be there, we can't get worse at center and think it will all work out. Indiana came up again, and they're not mentioning Turner? WTF? Turner keeps us close, so him and a strong player back make that deal worth while...the 'strong' player could be any of a number of those mentioned...but w/o Turner for example this is self destruction... McConnell and Turner, that would be cool... but Turned should be the start of that discussion...
Last edited by Vladimir_Taltos on Tue Sep 26, 2023 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No reason to take a bad deal just because it's the only one on the table. Go into the season with Ayton and then when the right opportunity presents itself - pounce.
You’re right…but we’re forgetting 2 things:
1. It’s not just Nurkic coming to us. What else we get will be key. No one wants a Nurkic for Ayton straight swap.
2. It’s possible the relationship with Ayton is not worth continuing. If someone like Booker is done with him you move him. Or Ayton himself might be the one who is done here. Don’t think this can be ruled out.
Dragging it out isn’t going to help or be good for the team. It needs to be taken care of before the season. Remember when we brought Markieff in and made him play half the season…he was awful.
He was just practicing with Booker and KD at UCLA. I don’t think they hate each other. There’s been no evidence to back up those rumors.
There’s a lot of room between hating someone and not wanting them on the team. I think Ayton is a very likable person…but it’s hard for me to believe that Booker, as competitive as he is, isn’t turned off a bit by Ayton’s on/off motor and temperament. This is as a basketball player, not a person.
I just meant that it doesn’t seem like they don’t want to be teammates if they’re voluntarily practicing together during the offseason. And certainly they didn’t have the understanding that a trade was going to happen and that his relationship with the team was over.
"I'm a Deandre Ayton guy."--Al McCoy, September 21, 2022.
And I have to say, why the f be in a hurry to position another Riley team to luck into talent...f that. An article described Portland"s interactions with the Heat as a giant F you...I'm with them. I think them getting Lillard blows...
Thus we should ONLY facilitate if it sets US up to win, not bloody Miami...
Nuric and the trades spoken of so far are mostly crap. If we trade Ayton without keeping the move at least lateral on a defensive big, we're f'd. Jokic etc. are still going to be there, we can't get worse at center and think it will all work out. Indiana came up again, and they're not mentioning Turner? WTF? Turner keeps us close, so him and a strong player back make that deal worth while...the 'strong' player could be any of a number of those mentioned...but w/o Turner for example this is self destruction... McConnell and Turner, that would be cool... but Turned should be the start of that discussion...
McConnell, are you serious? He’d be our fourth guard at best. How much do you think he’d move the needle?
Nuric and the trades spoken of so far are mostly crap. If we trade Ayton without keeping the move at least lateral on a defensive big, we're f'd. Jokic etc. are still going to be there, we can't get worse at center and think it will all work out. Indiana came up again, and they're not mentioning Turner? WTF? Turner keeps us close, so him and a strong player back make that deal worth while...the 'strong' player could be any of a number of those mentioned...but w/o Turner for example this is self destruction... McConnell and Turner, that would be cool... but Turned should be the start of that discussion...
McConnell, are you serious? He’d be our fourth guard at best. How much do you think he’d move the needle?
Fine, Caleb, whomever you wish to define as needle moving...my underlying premise was the point, not specifics. Turner would allow us to more or less stay even at Center...then we need something to sweeten the deal beyond that...OG out of Toronto and Turner...whomever.
I am still blown away at how many people think an Ayton for Nurkic trade would be anything but a massive downgrade at the center position. The excuses being thrown around are flimsier than some of Jeremy's arguments propping up Ayton.
And...even if we get OG back, is even him a big enough upgrade to the SF/PF position over KBD or Yuta -- consummate role players?
I don't have any answers but I certainly don't buy the ones being thrown around here. And if the Anti Ayton folks are going to make such flimsy arguments -- well, maybe you shouldn't beat up on Jeremy when he does the same.
Sorry, I can't help it...I detest hypocrisy.
I think the disconnect is whether you’re evaluating Ayton on what he was last year(especially post KD trade) or if you’re evaluating him on previous seasons. Nurkic is not a massive downgrade from post KD trade Ayton. If you view Ayton as the guy in the 2021 playoffs or even 21-22 regular season Ayton, yes Nurkic is a decently sized downgrade. I don’t trust that Ayton to show back up.
Ayton quit on this team multiple times(ya you can argue the team also quit on him with the whole Monty situation) but I don’t think it’s a flimsy argument at all to be worried he’s not completely bought in to playing here.
I also think you’re underrating OG a lot. He’s a near DPOY level defender at 4 positions. He’s also a good 3 point shooter on high volume. He’s a huge upgrade on KBD or Yuta and unlike them he’s proven it over multiple years.
I am still blown away at how many people think an Ayton for Nurkic trade would be anything but a massive downgrade at the center position. The excuses being thrown around are flimsier than some of Jeremy's arguments propping up Ayton.
And...even if we get OG back, is even him a big enough upgrade to the SF/PF position over KBD or Yuta -- consummate role players?
I don't have any answers but I certainly don't buy the ones being thrown around here. And if the Anti Ayton folks are going to make such flimsy arguments -- well, maybe you shouldn't beat up on Jeremy when he does the same.
Sorry, I can't help it...I detest hypocrisy.
I think the disconnect is whether you’re evaluating Ayton on what he was last year(especially post KD trade) or if you’re evaluating him on previous seasons. Nurkic is not a massive downgrade from post KD trade Ayton. If you view Ayton as the guy in the 2021 playoffs or even 21-22 regular season Ayton, yes Nurkic is a decently sized downgrade. I don’t trust that Ayton to show back up.
Ayton quit on this team multiple times(ya you can argue the team also quit on him with the whole Monty situation) but I don’t think it’s a flimsy argument at all to be worried he’s not completely bought in to playing here.
I also think you’re underrating OG a lot. He’s a near DPOY level defender at 4 positions. He’s also a good 3 point shooter on high volume. He’s a huge upgrade on KBD or Yuta and unlike them he’s proven it over multiple years.
Agree OG would be a nice upgrade at his position but I think he wants to be featured more as a player and not sure he would be happy as a 3rd/4th stringer.
