Game Day: Suns (9-3) @ Thunder (10-2), Fri 11/15/24

[Ring_Wanted]

Good points about Book.

I'd still keep Nurk for the time being but I think Bud needs to implement a center-by-committee approach. Some nights it'll be Nurk, some nights Plumlee, some Oso. They all need to accept it and understand that there might be games where they might not play. And I still think Allen for Stewart makes sense for us provided we can trust Dunn, Royce and now Okogie to hold up their 3pt shooting.

Agreed on the committee approach. Also 100% on board with moving Allen for Beef Stew. Before the start of the season I had my doubts on who would be the primary trading chip between Allen and O'Neale, but Royce is playing really well (and is way less redundant) so unless things change significantly it's Allen who would be the guy to move (also makes more money so the trading surface increases). Obviously Dunn's emergence as a shooter is a big factor here.

Other big men targets in no particular order (and with a varying degree of fit/value/cap complexity) could be Nance, Reid, Olynyk, Goga/Wendell, Valanciunas, Toppin, Okongwu or Zach Collins. I'd also call CHA and see if they'd be ok with exploring Williams+Nick Smith.

[Mori Chu]

I am not as down on Booker as some folks here, but I agree with most of the comments. I think one problem is that when Booker is being double-teamed and trapped, his instinct seems to be, "I will turn into a distributor, a PG, a decoy." But Book isn't an elite ball-handler nor passer, so having him as your PG is a huge win for the opposing team. It's an admission of defeat. Instead, he should be like Ray Allen, as Ring_Wanted said. He should be a finisher, a shooter/scorer. Give the ball to Tyus Jones or Morris or Beal or somebody else, let them initiate the offense. Move without the ball, roll off screens. Basically study Steph Curry and learn how he gets open. And then look for the pass and take the shot.

[1tinsoldier]

I am not as down on Booker as some folks here, but I agree with most of the comments. I think one problem is that when Booker is being double-teamed and trapped, his instinct seems to be, "I will turn into a distributor, a PG, a decoy." But Book isn't an elite ball-handler nor passer, so having him as your PG is a huge win for the opposing team. It's an admission of defeat. Instead, he should be like Ray Allen, as Ring_Wanted said. He should be a finisher, a shooter/scorer. Give the ball to Tyus Jones or Morris or Beal or somebody else, let them initiate the offense. Move without the ball, roll off screens. Basically study Steph Curry and learn how he gets open. And then look for the pass and take the shot.

i agree with all of that. But i've been down on Booker for years because i don't see that change ever happening. And i think those issues in the air has been on Book's mind too, and it's why he's looks to be in a bit of a funk the past year. Even his positive reviews on Team USA as a valuable "role-player" was another cue to him that his visions of grandeur/superstardom are being reality checked.

another reality check is Book has always been a bit of a lone wolf. But more than ever, besides for high-fives when he's hot, i'm not seeing chemistry between him and this team. They're a little more connected with Durant out there, probably because they respect his career, accomplishments, and maturity. But Booker now has a rep here of being part of historic team collapses and avoiding taking ownership and communication roles off court with the team and press.

unless Bud can really implement change, i believe, this season, fans of our "home-grown" star will be emotionally ready to transition out of the Booker era and into one where we actually have a shot at a title.

[1tinsoldier]

today's Minny game. Case in point.
Booker was hot and the team played with confidence. Blew it in the last 3 minutes playing Booker ball.
again, and again, he takes a wild 3pt shot when we only need 1 to win.

i don't care so much when his shot is off. i care that his head is consistently off in crunch time.
again. we were #1 in closing games under CP3's leadership and #1 this season with Durant leading close-outs
and we were historically last in closeouts last season when it was "Booker's team" and he was playing point

apparently, coach's haven't got the guts to call the shots. The color-analyst pointed out that they played 2 man ball the last 7 plays with Booker despite moving the ball well and scoring before that.

[Mori Chu]

today's Minny game. Case in point.
Booker was hot and the team played with confidence. Blew it in the last 3 minutes playing Booker ball.
again, and again, he takes a wild 3pt shot when we only need 1 to win.

i don't care so much when his shot is off. i care that his head is consistently off in crunch time.
again. we were #1 in closing games under CP3's leadership and #1 this season with Durant leading close-outs
and we were historically last in closeouts last season when it was "Booker's team" and he was playing point

apparently, coach's haven't got the guts to call the shots. The color-analyst pointed out that they played 2 man ball the last 7 plays with Booker despite moving the ball well and scoring before that.

If you want to blame Booker for that loss, we just don't see the game the same way. Book gave us 44 points and carried the team. The Suns other guys couldn't get a basket; Grayson missed a few, and Tyus Jones blew a good look at a floater on our last possession. And the refs leaned pretty hard in Minny's favor, too. I just don't think it's right to point to Booker as the problem in today's game.

[1tinsoldier]

like Amare, what Booker needs is a ticket to NY where he will thrill them for a few years and not win anything - instead of it being us for a full 60 years.

i knew there would surely be post's complaining that anyone could criticize our "home-grown" star after carrying the team on his back to a near victory with 44 points (in fact, that's what i posted on another forum an hour ago). If fans haven't learned from last season's debacle, the debacle that ended the prior season, and even the 4 in a row we lost to Bud's team in the Finals, they'll learn this season.

BOOKER WILL GIVETH, AND BOOKER WILL TAKETH AWAY
(needlessly. It just takes discipline and maturity)

it doesn't really matter who scores and how many. It's about results. Amare's nickname was "Stat" and Booker is another stat guy who you will never see hoist up the ball from half-court at the end of quarters. I'd trade him today for Jalen Brunson if the Knicks would take the deal.

[1tinsoldier]

perhaps some brave soul, good with the stats, can post Booker's career success rate with game winning shots and within the final minute of games?
and turnover rate in the final minute?

because from where i've sat for the past decade it clearly looks like we've got a Carmelo Anthony, Russel Westbrook, Allen Iverson, James Harden future ahead. Career scorer's who never really learned how to leverage team play to win in crunch time.

[In2ition]

perhaps some brave soul, good with the stats, can post Booker's career success rate with game winning shots and within the final minute of games?
and turnover rate in the final minute?

because from where i've sat for the past decade it clearly looks like we've got a Carmelo Anthony, Russel Westbrook, Allen Iverson, James Harden future ahead. Career scorer's who never really learned how to leverage team play to win in crunch time.

Imo, he was good on game winners early in his career, but the past few years, he's dropped off quite a bit.

[Split T]

perhaps some brave soul, good with the stats, can post Booker's career success rate with game winning shots and within the final minute of games?
and turnover rate in the final minute?

because from where i've sat for the past decade it clearly looks like we've got a Carmelo Anthony, Russel Westbrook, Allen Iverson, James Harden future ahead. Career scorer's who never really learned how to leverage team play to win in crunch time.

Or maybe a Jayson Tatum

[ShelC]

Weird how we forget what started with the bubble run thru the KD trade. Put the right players around him in the right system and he's every bit a 1A go-to scorer who can hit big shots, defend and make the others around him better. We've gone away from that the past season and a half. Somewhere along the way he's tried to be more of a James Harden, scoring and distributing, which isn't his game. He's not a 10+ assist, 3pt shooting playmaker. He's a Kobe-type of scorer.

[1tinsoldier]

perhaps some brave soul, good with the stats, can post Booker's career success rate with game winning shots and within the final minute of games?
and turnover rate in the final minute?

because from where i've sat for the past decade it clearly looks like we've got a Carmelo Anthony, Russel Westbrook, Allen Iverson, James Harden future ahead. Career scorer's who never really learned how to leverage team play to win in crunch time.

Or maybe a Jayson Tatum

from what i've seen of Tatum, he's doesn't necessarily make bad decisions, he just fails to show up sometimes
it's not missed shots, i mind. It's missed opportunities based on bad decisions

like last game, Book does the hard part by scoring 44 points, but then wastes it all by making the bad decision to play 1 on 1 in crunch time and force bad shots and throw his body into double and triple teams

i just heard him say the right thing about not being "the old Book" who takes on the doubles, but he can't help himself in the crunch

[1tinsoldier]

Weird how we forget what started with the bubble run thru the KD trade. Put the right players around him in the right system and he's every bit a 1A go-to scorer who can hit big shots, defend and make the others around him better. We've gone away from that the past season and a half. Somewhere along the way he's tried to be more of a James Harden, scoring and distributing, which isn't his game. He's not a 10+ assist, 3pt shooting playmaker. He's a Kobe-type of scorer.

he's a Kobe scorer for 3 1/2 quarters
but he's a Russel Westbrook at the end of games

like i said. We saw the replay of his last second 3pt shot win last season over and over
but the highlight reel had to go back to "the bubble" for the prior winning shot
do you know how many potential game winners he's hoisted?
and last minute shots? (particularly from 3 when we needed 1 or 2)

[In2ition]

The shot with 2 seconds left was rough. That's normally a layup for him from midrange, but he airballed it long, by a good margin. That was odd.

[Superbone]

The shot with 2 seconds left was rough. That's normally a layup for him from midrange, but he airballed it long, by a good margin. That was odd.

Yep, and Tyus missed his floater that he had been hitting all game long.

[Split T]

perhaps some brave soul, good with the stats, can post Booker's career success rate with game winning shots and within the final minute of games?
and turnover rate in the final minute?

because from where i've sat for the past decade it clearly looks like we've got a Carmelo Anthony, Russel Westbrook, Allen Iverson, James Harden future ahead. Career scorer's who never really learned how to leverage team play to win in crunch time.

Or maybe a Jayson Tatum

from what i've seen of Tatum, he's doesn't necessarily make bad decisions, he just fails to show up sometimes
it's not missed shots, i mind. It's missed opportunities based on bad decisions

like last game, Book does the hard part by scoring 44 points, but then wastes it all by making the bad decision to play 1 on 1 in crunch time and force bad shots and throw his body into double and triple teams

i just heard him say the right thing about not being "the old Book" who takes on the doubles, but he can't help himself in the crunch

We must have watched different games…Booker was not forcing it against double and triple teams…he was making the pass to the open man every time he was doubled. You obviously have an axe to grind with Book, so I doubt it will matter, I just don’t understand what you want. What did you think of his series against Denver in 2023? How about his back to back 40 pieces in the finals? Book did his part in those games.

Book isn’t perfect. He’s not Luka. He’s not Kobe. He’s still a damn good player and has gotten us as close as any suns player to a title. It seems like you want to move on…what’s the alternative, we trade him for Jalen Green, Jabari Smith and our picks back? Gross

[Split T]

Here’s Book’s clutch numbers since the finals run if anyone is interested.

44% from the field and 25% from 3. 46 assists to 17 turnovers, for a 2.7 A/TO ratio. His total A/TO over that time frame is 2.1 A/TO.

The 3 point shooting is obviously bad, but his assist numbers are good, turnovers low, and his 2pt% is 58%, which is significantly higher than his usual 2pt%.

Fix the late game 3pt shooting and we have no issue.

[ShelC]

But even to that point, he's not really a 3pt shooter. He's a scorer and midrange assassin. Monty and CP got him looks in that MJ/Kobe area of the floor and he was deadly. We've moved away from that and expect him to be Curry, Klay, Luka, Harden. Get him back to what he does best.

[Superbone]

Yeah, I think Tin's expectations are out of whack. He's not what he's expecting him to be.

[Split T]

Which might be a little tricky to do with our current roster. Tyus is a great pg, but defenses will likely try and make him beat us if we put the ball in his hands. He’s not CP3. I think when healthy, making teams defend a Booker/KD PNR is probably the best option. Throw Beal in there as the screener for the screener in a stack pnr and that should probably be our bread and butter.

I trust Book as a playmaker. His shortcomings are when he gets trapped and no one is trapping a Book/KD pick and roll. I also saw some promise in Oso as the screener. He can play in the short roll and was taking and hitting that floater with confidence. It sucks we lost the game, but I was actually pleased with a lot of stuff I saw. We missed shots down the stretch and they made some. I don’t think it was much more than that.

[1tinsoldier]

perhaps some brave soul, good with the stats, can post Booker's career success rate with game winning shots and within the final minute of games?
and turnover rate in the final minute?

because from where i've sat for the past decade it clearly looks like we've got a Carmelo Anthony, Russel Westbrook, Allen Iverson, James Harden future ahead. Career scorer's who never really learned how to leverage team play to win in crunch time.

Or maybe a Jayson Tatum

from what i've seen of Tatum, he's doesn't necessarily make bad decisions, he just fails to show up sometimes
it's not missed shots, i mind. It's missed opportunities based on bad decisions

like last game, Book does the hard part by scoring 44 points, but then wastes it all by making the bad decision to play 1 on 1 in crunch time and force bad shots and throw his body into double and triple teams

i just heard him say the right thing about not being "the old Book" who takes on the doubles, but he can't help himself in the crunch

We must have watched different games…Booker was not forcing it against double and triple teams…he was making the pass to the open man every time he was doubled. You obviously have an axe to grind with Book, so I doubt it will matter, I just don’t understand what you want. What did you think of his series against Denver in 2023? How about his back to back 40 pieces in the finals? Book did his part in those games.

Book isn’t perfect. He’s not Luka. He’s not Kobe. He’s still a damn good player and has gotten us as close as any suns player to a title. It seems like you want to move on…what’s the alternative, we trade him for Jalen Green, Jabari Smith and our picks back? Gross

i said, "Book does the hard part by scoring 44 points, but then wastes it all by making the bad decision to play 1 on 1 in crunch time and force bad shots and throw his body into double and triple teams." in CRUNCH TIME

that's the issue. the FLAW that dooms us to fall short every season, just like the other stars i mentioned. Sure, like them, Book has had a tremendous career, terrific games and seasons.

i'd still like to look into his career close-out percentage, but we've all seen him chuck wild 3pt shots when we only need 1 or 2 to win about a dozen times in recent years (if he wasn't stripped of the ball first)

-- and lead historic collapses in clutch playoff games after "Booker's team" had the worst record in the league for a couple of seasons
-- and last season, lead the Suns to the 3rd(?) worst close-out record for any team in NBA history!!!

even Ann Meyers criticized the last half dozen isolation plays last night and Book himself said 3 days ago that he wasn't going to force shots like the old Book anymore

i understand that Book is still the fan favorite and that's fine. Loving basketball doesn't have to be about winning. It can just be about rooting for your favorite player.

if we praise him for 44, we can still admit he blew it in the end. again. and again. The players who aren't fan favorites like Nurkic are more freely blamed (who i believe is a better than average center who doesn't work out well with some match-ups).

like i said. i'd trade Booker for Jalen Brunson even if we had to add someone else to the deal. imo, Booker would be happier to be there anyway. He doesn't seem happy to me. And it's not good for morale.